Setting up for boolits in a new 9mm

[robertbank]

My best groups were with HS-6, W231/HP-38, BE & GREEN DOT under the Lee 356-125 2R powdercoated sized .358/.359 (depending on the gun)

European 9MM's require even bigger boolits than that, they slug out at .358 & .3585

Not all European 9MM's. CZ, Tanfoglio. newer FN's and Walther are not oversized. I think you will find the over sized pistols in pre-WW11 pistols. Even the Norinco pistols from China in 9MM are not oversized as you suggest. Your experiences may well be different than mine.

Take Care

Bob

[Bigslug]

Bigslug you might try 231 or Unique in your 9MM. I have found the slightly slower powders work a bit better than Bullseye.

Bob, your whole post is good stuff. Given that we seem to be playing from opposite ends of the bullet weight and application spectrum, a comparison of notes might be beneficial for the collective brain trust.

Undoubtedly, burn rate is one of those "your mileage may vary" topics. Unique has been one of those "lots of unburned powder left behind" propellants for me in auto pistol calibers (230gr .45 mostly), and I have come to vastly prefer the faster stuff for cleanliness. In this instance I was thinking "air cooled wheelweight (semi-soft) and fast powder for good base sealing". W231 did well for me in .45 when I briefly experimented with a pound of it. At any rate, the Bullseye has the saving grace of being on hand in quantity, is giving me velocity S.D.'s that I'd be happy with for long range rifle ammo, the interior of the gun was clean after 90 test rounds, and the leading experienced was so slight, I think I'll be "in the zone" after minor tweaking.

I agree with your assessment of using .357 sized lead bullets. I have had excellent results in all my 9MM pistols sizing my bullets .357. . . .Sizing the bullet .357 causes a bit of a bulge in the case. . . The bulge you get has had zero affect on feeding in at least 10 different 9MM pistols we own. I cannot remember the last time I had a jam either in practice or competition outside of the time I found myself not paying attention as to when I was seating the bullets.

Probably should have mentioned - I'm using Winchester cases. Not seeing this bulge - possibly a factor of the case, or maybe my use of the .38 S&W sizing apparatus? I did have a couple of failures to go fully into battery in yesterday's testing, but I've seen this a zillion times before - simply a matter of needing a little more taper crimp - - easily dealt with as we transition from the single-stage press prototypes to the progressive production phase.

I use WW alloy water quenched from the mold. I have not found the need to add tin to the alloy. I do add tin to aid bullet s fill out in some of my rifle bullets, There again only to aid in mold fill out. Water quenched bullets from the mold seem to the need for a harder bullet. I don't water quench 38spl or 45 acp and 45Colt bullets as they are low pressure cartridge's.

Good intel to chew on. Production alloy is either going to be known wheel weight, "mystery metal" that hardness tests in that 12-BHN (ish) range that makes me call it wheel weight, or known XRF-tested range scrap or reclaimed shot mixed with Superhard and tin to "create" wheel weight. My own experience tells me not to be shy with the use of tin. Time being money, I'd rather have good fillout easy and fast than fight through a bunch of reject bullets to get it. As for water quenching to increase the hardness and decrease the malleability, that's still a topic of some puzzling. The G5 Glock didn't like it (leading/vapor deposits on the flashlight bezel), but everything else seemed to do OK with it. Since the bore diameters on that gun are effectively the same as everything else, I can only conclude it's a rifling profile thing and/or an issue with the previous lube (thin BLL vs the current thicker application of 45/45/10).

I use, for the most part 125 gr lead and FMJ bullets. Lead for practice and jacketed for major events. Some IDPA stages are not smoke friendly. LOL. I tested 147 gr bullets in my guns. They work well and in theory the recoil impulse ought to be less at the same power factor (Vel*Bullet weight/1000). I guess in theory the recoil impulse is less. I can't say I feel the difference nor see a lessoning of gun rise when using the heavier bullet. Some do but I don't.

In my case, I'm a heavy-for-caliber / flat point guy for reasons of either kinetic targets or consistency of deep penetration of 4-legged meaty targets that the extra mass provides. The jacketed "work" ammo I associate with daily is either 147 grain hollowpoint or the non-expanding training equivalent at right around 1000 fps. Since there isn't likely to be any expansion with the 135 grain flat point Ranch Dog, the logic is there will still be plenty of penetration without the extra little bit of weight (a pointier 147 grain FMJ won't stop inside of nine 1-gallon milk jugs/six feet of water). The happy coincidence seems to be that both are shooting to the same point of aim. I'm also digging the subsonic aspect because, in my Ruger carbine, the 16" barrel is effectively it's own expansion chamber in a state where I can't play with suppressors for real.

The light & fast vs. heavy & slow ends of the 9mm envelope and the resulting differences in pressure are worth considering for alloy selection, noise, and usefulness in energizing a muzzle break for those who choose to run one. Learning how to run a clean bore at both extremes would be effort well spent.

(And thanks to the mods that stickied this!)

[John Guedry]

Thank you sir for this post. While not a new reloader I am new to 9mm. I am going back and reading the whole over. Thanks again.

[robertbank]

Bigslug thanks for your post. Alliant powders in this part of Canada are rarer than hens teeth. That probably accounts for my drift away from same and into the mid range burn rates for pistol applications. For example I LOVE Clays for my 38spl loads. I enjoy shooting IDPA Stock Revolver Division. Clays shoots about as clean as any powder I have run into for revolvers using lead bullets. Bullseye would be right there as well. 231 is dirty in the 38spl. I use that powder because I have a lot of it on hand and right now. If it were otherwise Clays would be my first choice for the 38spl using 158gr RN bullets in competition. Powders and primers are absent from a lot of shops and those that do have powder place more value on them than I am willing to pay right now. I just bought 5,000 primers marketed by "Cam-Pro". I suspect they are re-badged Russian primers. I'll know when they arrive.

Your comment regarding the bulge I get is as you suggest a function of the sizing dies. You, using the 38S&W plug are expanding the cases more than I am using the Dillons/Lee sizing dies. I like the Dillon dies as they have generous mouths for accepting lead bullets. I forget why I stuck my Lee sizing die in my 550. Both size the cases about the same and I get that bulge from using both when loading my bullets. The bulge has NO effect on feeding in any of my 9MM pistols. Sizing the cases smaller ensures a tight friction fit for both lead and jacketed bullets. It may well affect how the powder is consumed given the slightly more resistance a tight fit cause. I have never experienced unburned powder using 231 under 125 or 147 gr bullets in the 9MM.

Some of the competitors in IPSC are now using 156gr bullets in there 9MM chasing the holy grail of little or no recoil to contend with via light powder charges under heavy bullets to achieve 125 power factor (Vel x Bullet weight/1000). I am not going down that road which leads to lighter recoil springs, the odd jam and questionable accuracy. To old to bother. I am used to how my guns run and enjoy excellent accuracy off the bench which translates into better accuracy in theory by me. :>).

The hobby of reloading offers us so many enjoyable variables to contend with. Re;oading and casting os somewhat like a tree with many branch's none of which are wrong. The nice part is most of the work has been done by folks who came before us. The ability to read and comprehend is the variable in most of the more contentious threads you run into.

Summer has arrived in the North West, life is good.

Take Care

Bob

[Bigslug]

Your comment regarding the bulge I get is as you suggest a function of the sizing dies. You, using the 38S&W plug are expanding the cases more than I am using the Dillons/Lee sizing dies.

I would also state here that there is a definite balance in setting up with the .38 S&W dies - run the plug too deep and your bullet will fall past your intended seating depth, and that's no good. The goal is to flare out enough so that you aren't swaging your bullets below intended diameter, so a happy medium must be sought.

. . .I like the Dillon dies as they have generous mouths for accepting lead bullets. I forget why I stuck my Lee sizing die in my 550. Both size the cases about the same and I get that bulge from using both when loading my bullets. The bulge has NO effect on feeding in any of my 9MM pistols.

It's worth calling the reader's attention to the fact that the 9mm is NOT a straight-walled case; it tapers significantly from a nominal .394" at the case head down to .380 at the mouth, and the chamber is tapered accordingly to match. Folks more mathematically inclined than I can puzzle over how that translates to operating with slugs fatter than the standard jacketed, but it's a good thing to know.

Some of the competitors in IPSC are now using 156gr bullets in there 9MM. . .

Now I find that VERY interesting. . . A couple years back, I read Sixguns by Keith for the first time. In it, Elmer mentions that friends of his were using his .38 Special 160 grain hollowpoint bullet with good success on small game drops too small a diameter bullet for my .357 Magin the 9mm. It was not 100% clear from the text, but one infers that he was talking about the hollow-pointed 358429. Wondering if anyone is doing this today, which would be interesting in that Keith's cronies would have created a 9mm version of the "FBI Load" a couple of decades before it was ever a thing in the .38. At any rate, if the concept DID work, and one had one of those pesky "drops too small for my .357 Magnum" Lyman molds with the undersized front driving band, a trip to Hollowpointmold for use in one's 9mm's might give it a new lease on life.

At any rate, today was a good day:





Knocked out about 35 pounds of them this morning. Arm is sore, but I'm smiling anyway.

[robertbank]

Bigslug as to the taper shape of the 9MM I took my calipers out the other day and set them at .380. I then took a new factory Winchester round and slid the caliper dpwn the cartridge. The caliper stopped mid way down the cartridge. I tested a Reminton factory round and found the same thing. SAMMI is SAMMI but I think in some respects it is more of a suggestion than something written in stone....oh oh Vegas just tied their series... it's a Canadian thing sorry folks but there are somethings more important than...well life itself.

Take Care

Bob

[Bigslug]

VICTORY!!!

I left Pop's place after the Sunday casting marathon and he attended to the Lube Job on the Ranch Dog 357-135 with the traditional thin coating of White Label 45/45/10. I had to go back and dog sit for a couple hours this morning so generated a test batch of 200 on the XL650:



Lee .38 Auto/.38 S&W sizer/decapper in station #1; usual Dillon hardware for the rest. Set the bullet down to cover the last TL groove and ran the TC die until the mouth miked out at .380". 3.7 grains of Bullseye at 1030fps

50 rounds through the Gen 5 G17 ("Marksman" barrel) - Dry patch on jag took out soot and maybe some microscopic lead flakes, leaving some lube streaking behind. Less than 5 passes with a bronze brush completed the job

50 rounds through Glock 48 ("Marksman" barrel) - pretty much same result. Maybe cleaned a little easier.

50 rounds through Glock 26 (old school polygonal barrel). Even smaller lead flakes on the dry patch - -which rendered the bore completely clean to the eye with a few passes.

38 rounds through Ruger PC Carbine - If you'd told me it hadn't been fired, I'd have believed you. Tight patch got a few TINY flakes. No antimony deposits on the baffles of the MCarbo muzzle brake I have on it.

Seems to act like a really accurate load as well, though that was not the focus of the day.

SCIENCE OVER! Let the mass-production begin!

[mainiac]

This is intresting,considering that my latest pet is a sig210a,,
Been loading and shooting for 35 yrs,,and just stumbled onto the fact that the 9,,is splendid,and extremely accurate