The load/speed/deer

[StarMetal]

The Lyman cast book Third Edition gives these figures for the 30-06 using Unique with various weight. Consider that they said they tested these with a universal receiver and 26 inch barrel. I would assume your barrel is shorter, but with a fast burning powder Like Unique you should be in the ball park.

170 grain: 12 grs=1504fps, 16.5grs=1811fps
187 grain: 11.5grs=1404fps, 16.5grs=1715fps

Now those some anemic, but the pressure on the upper, or max, load was 35,500 for the 170 grain bullet and 36,000 for the 187 grain.

What powders do you have?

Joe

[pmeisel]

Putting this in historical perspective... the velocities Joe quotes in post 41 are very similar to what the manual (Lee 2nd is what is close right now) shows for a 303 Savage and a 32-40.

Both took deer in their day, but were replaced by rounds that could do the job better. If I was lucky enough to own a 32-40 I would probably still take it out for deer from time to time.

The 30-06 of course can do much better, just not with Unique!

[Bullshop]

See it was a little slow comming but it came. Oh ye of little faith!
Blessings
BIC/BS

[35 Whelen]

WOW...interesting post! Unless I missed it, no one replied with first hand evidence or experience regarding "low" velocity cast bullets on deer. If I may contribute my 2¢...
Several years ago when my oldest daughter decided she'd like to hunt deer with me, I decided to let her use my FR-8 Mauser Scout Rifle (308 Winchester cal.). I chose this rifle because it's short, light and I find the forward mounted scope is easier to use for people who aren't familiar with scopes. But as we all know, physics dictate that lighter rifles kick harder. So I decided to go the cast bullet route and develop a load using a 311291 HP. Cast from ACWW it weighs about 175 grs. Long story short, I settled on 22 grs. of AL2400 which netted around 1850 fps. Not a barn-burner, but would group 5 shots into less than 1.5" @ 100 yds. over and over. She wound up killing her first three deer with this load and rifle. We eat lots of venison and now, when I want a "meat" deer and know my shot will be 100 yds. or less, I almost always use this rig.
With said load and rifle, this what happened:

110 yds.


35 yds.


80 yds.


30 yds.


65 yds.


45 yds.




There probably are more over the years that I just didn't bother to photograph. The bullet always exits with the exception of the doe that was shot @ 110 yds. It got dark on me so I couldn't see to recover the bullet and by the next morning, the coyotes had scattered the remains. Bullet expansion is dicey...but it seems to expand most of the time.
My theory on this subject is a hole through the lungs is a hole through the lungs and believe me, deer don't live long with holes in their lungs regardless of how slow or small in caliber the bullet was. Personally, if I was comfortable with my ability to hit with a the load described in the original post, then I'd use it.
35W

[StarMetal]

Putting this in historical perspective... the velocities Joe quotes in post 41 are very similar to what the manual (Lee 2nd is what is close right now) shows for a 303 Savage and a 32-40.

Both took deer in their day, but were replaced by rounds that could do the job better. If I was lucky enough to own a 32-40 I would probably still take it out for deer from time to time.

The 30-06 of course can do much better, just not with Unique!

Yes those are right out of Lyman's book. Larry Gibson and I talked at length about Lyman's testing...that is for the cast loads, not the jacketed they do. Larry told me that they don't shoot every single load in that book. If you think about it that would be quite a lot of shooting. Larry said some they actually shot, but most they figure out through whatever system they use. Say for example something like Quick Load. I wish that they would the pressures for all the cartridges. They seem to do only the most popular ones like 30-06, 308, etc..

Yes if the poster has a better powder that would be suggested. He can tell, or ask, for a load and more the likely one of us here have actually chronographed it and he will know what it's doing.

Hurry up...hunting season soon upon us!!!!

Joe

[Mark Daiute]

My powders:

Accurate Arms 4755
IMR 3031
IMR 4759
IMR 4064
IMR 4895 (quarter pound or less remaining in the jug)

Lee C309-180R with Hornady gas checks and cast from WW, air cooled.

My Krag likes the Lyman 314299 best and I'm working up loads in that rifle for my son to hunt with so I'm open to suggestions. Again, Hornady gas checks, air cooled WW's.

Have at it!

Thanks for all the great info so far. I'm going to start right in with the 3031 loads already recommended.

Mark

[Larry Gibson]

I'm going to break my decision not to post anymore except by PM. I am so misquoted here by Starmetal it is pathetic and a correction is required.

Starmetal is entirely incorrect about what I said. I did not say; " that they don't shoot every single load in that book" or "they actually shot, but most they figure out through whatever system they use".

The conversation was with regards to whether Lyman did accuracy testing by by "shooting groups". What I told Starmetal was that Lyman does not accuracy test all of it's loads, including "accuracy loads" by shooting them for group at a target. I told him to read the Lyman Manual as it has been so stated in most recent Lyman Manuals. I also told Starmetal of a conversation I had some years back with a Lyman load development technition. He stated the "accuracy load" were selected as those that gave the best and most consistent internally uniform ballistics. He further stated they most often used a 50 yard indoor shooting tunnel with their pressure test rifles and regualr rifles and only occasionally used an out door 100 yard range. I don't think they even have the 100 yard out door range anymore.

Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd Edition states on page 123 under Accuracy Loads; "[I Unless noted in "Comments", the accuracy load was not fired at targets. The load, however, does have a high potential - assuming all external factors are optimum - for producing outstanding accuracy since uniform internal ballistics are critical to accuracy on target. You cannot have one without the other.[/I]

That is what Lyman says and it is what I told Starmetal. The conversation then went on as to how I was able to measure the internal ballistics and their uniformity with the M43 Oehler PBL.

I am very preturbed by the blatent misquote of Starmetal's and only wish to correct it.

As to the topic of this thread.;

It certianly is nice to see everyone back on track. Given the capability of the '06 with cast bullets it should be loaded up to it's potential of 1850 to 2000+ fps with that bullet to pretty much equal the 30-30 and the 303 Savage, both of which are considered "adequate" for deer. I see no sense loading it any further "down" to a "marginal" range when the capability is there for better.

This will be my last post on this forum unless I am very badly misquoted as above. I want to thank all of the good folks here for an enjoyable time over the years. I have learned a lot here not only about cast bullets but other things of interest as well. I will not be entirely gone as I will continue to purview the posts. If I see a topic where I may have something pertinant I will PM the poster and with their permission respond.

Again, thanks to all, adios.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

My powders:

Accurate Arms 4755
IMR 3031
IMR 4759
IMR 4064
IMR 4895 (quarter pound or less remaining in the jug)

Lee C309-180R with Hornady gas checks and cast from WW, air cooled.

My Krag likes the Lyman 314299 best and I'm working up loads in that rifle for my son to hunt with so I'm open to suggestions. Again, Hornady gas checks, air cooled WW's.

Have at it!

Thanks for all the great info so far. I'm going to start right in with the 3031 loads already recommended.

Mark

Mark,

4895 and 4064 are very close. The 314299 and 311284 are my two favorite bullets for my Krag. To tell you the truth I haven't found a powder yet that my Krag didn't like. It's a very forgiving rifle/caliber.

I would give you loads for a Krag, but understand I normally try to drive my cast loads rather fast. I'm not the typical loader here trying to strive for economy loads. When I had lots of the H870 I was pretty much using a full case in 30-40 and 30-06 with very good success. Being that's a pretty slow powder my velocity was generally around 1800-1900 fps. For the Krag with those 200 grain cast that's about factory, but we know it's not for the 30-06.

In the Lyman book for the 30-06 using the 311299 the starting load for 4895 is 29.0 and for 4064 it's 30.5. The velocities are 1637 and 1703 fps. So you can see how close the two powders are. You could start with that little bit of 4895 you have, then switch over to the 4064 and be pretty close.

Joe

[fatnhappy]

WOW...interesting post! Unless I missed it, no one replied with first hand evidence or experience regarding "low" velocity cast bullets on deer. If I may contribute my 2¢...
Several years ago when my oldest daughter decided she'd like to hunt deer with me, I decided to let her use my FR-8 Mauser Scout Rifle. I chose this rifle because it's short, light and I find the forward mounted scope is easier to use for people who aren't familiar with scopes. But as we all know, physics dictate that lighter rifles kick harder. So I decided to go the cast bullet route and develop a load using a 311291 HP. Cast from ACWW it weighs about 175 grs. Long story short, I settled on 22 grs. which netted around 1850 fps. Not a barn-burner, but would group 5 shots into less than 1.5" @ 100 yds. over and over. She wound killing her first three deer with this load and rifle. We eat lots of venison and now, when I want a "meat" deer and know my shot will be 100 yds. or less, I almost always use this rig.
With said load and rifle, this what happened:

110 yds.


35 yds.


80 yds.


30 yds.


65 yds.


45 yds.




There probably are more over the years that I just didn't bother to photograph. The bullet always exits with the exception of the doe that was shot @ 110 yds. It got dark on me so I couldn't see to recover the bullet and by the next morning, the coyotes had scattered the remains. Bullet expansion is dicey...but it seems to expand most of the time.
My theory on this subject is a hole through the lungs is a hole through the lungs and believe me, deer don't live long with holes in their lungs regardless of how slow or small in caliber the bullet was. Personally, if I was comfortable with my ability to hit with a the load described in the original post, then I'd use it.
35W

Forigive my ignorance, but I must ask, does Texas not require blaze orange?
You obviously have a daughter that loves spending time with her father.

As for the topic of the thread... marginal? A 180 grain boolit at 1500 sounds an awful lot like a .357 loaded with a 358429. Is that marginal?

Sometimes after reading these threads I wonder if the deer in other states wear kevlar.

[Mark Daiute]

Starmetal:

to re-iterate; I have the C309 for my 03 and the 314299 for my Krag. Same loads for the 03 with the 180 grain bullet as you suggest for the Krag with the 200 grain bullet?

Again, to all: thanks for the great info.

[StarMetal]

Starmetal:

to re-iterate; I have the C309 for my 03 and the 314299 for my Krag. Same loads for the 03 with the 180 grain bullet as you suggest for the Krag with the 200 grain bullet?

Again, to all: thanks for the great info.

Those loads for the heavier bullets are safe for the lighter ones. The will increase though since they are lighter.

I'll look through my note book and see what I have in there for those two calibers. I had two 03's I really enjoyed and both shot equally the same....good. So far, personally, I haven't see a Krag that wouldn't shoot good. Most I've seen did have decent bores. I'll imagine there are some pretty shot out ones that don't do well.

You have two of the best rifles ever made and great cast shooters to hunt with.

Joe

[35 Whelen]

Forigive my ignorance, but I must ask, does Texas not require blaze orange?
You obviously have a daughter that loves spending time with her father.

As for the topic of the thread... marginal? A 180 grain boolit at 1500 sounds an awful lot like a .357 loaded with a 358429. Is that marginal?

Sometimes after reading these threads I wonder if the deer in other states wear kevlar.

Blaze orange is required only when hunting on public land. FWIW, Texas is 97% private property. I also hunt in New Mexico and they do not require blaze orange.
35W

[atr]

I do what bcp does,,,for deer hunting I upped my 180gr to 2000fps in the .308Win using rifle powder IMR 4895,
if you have ever traile a wounded critter throught the woods there would be no question about ever using a "marginal" load. Tracking wounded game is no fun,,,,I go for the extra umph in a hunting load.

[Texinoz]

Wow - no mention of shot placement as an issue - or what species of deer. Over here we have tiny little fallow deer (usually waaaayyy less than 100lbs) up through red deer to quite large Sambar.

200gn @ 2000fps sure isn't needed for the little stuff...

[L Ross]

Well, I'll stick a toe in the water. I have had experience shooting 3 deer with the these three cast boolit loads.
150 gr.RCBS flat nose gas checked WW alloy with 13 gr. Red Dot Chrono'd at 1632 fps. from 03 Springfield. Average size adult doe quartering toward me at 35 yards. Broke left front leg, ranged through left lung, center of heart, rear of right lung, through the diaphram, through the liver, and exited middle of right side. There was no expansion but there was a star shaped radial split, ( 5 lines ) in the heart. Doe made 4 quick bounds, stopped, the tail shivered and she fell over. Dead when I walked up to her.

8x58R Swedish Rolling Block with that Lee big 8 m/m boolit at 230 gr. WW, 22 gr 5744, velocity 1640 chrono'd. Neck shot spike buck at 42 yards. 1 1/2 inches of vertebrae missing, instantly dead.

35 whelen 16 twist, RCBS 200 gr. flat point, too soft an alloy at 7 brinell, 30 gr. 5744 1800 fps chrono'd. Adult doe high lung shot, steeply uphill at 55 yards. Dropped in her tracks and slid down the hill almost to me, stopped kicking as she stopped sliding. Golf ball size exit wound. That was when I suspected too soft alloy. I was given the boolits and later found the rifle leaded out after 20 rounds. I tested the brinell after the fact.

Shot placement is paramount. I shoot game to eat it. I don't want a bunch of bloodshot, jellied meat to spend time on trimming.

As an aside, I transported a convicted deer poacher one day and his favorite deer killer was a 22 mag fmj with heart shots. He said they were almost always recovered in 30 yards. He remembered not recovering 1 deer for fear of being seen, not that the deer wasn't dead nearby.

Duke

[onondaga]

Mark, A reputable guide would likely say that 1000 foot pounds of energy delivered with your bullet is necessary for a clean humane kill of deer. A ballistic calculator would put velocity of a 180 gr RN at 1841 fps muzzle velocity to deliver 1000 foot pounds at 100 yards for a clean kill at that maximum distance.

Calculator:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

Gary

[10x]

I have shot a number of deer with 180 to 200 grain cast bullets ticking along at around 1450 fps with my 303 Ross rifle. At thirty yards the 180 grain lee will shoot the full length of a mule deer (texas heart shot) and break every rib on its way to stopping under the hide at the front of the deer. A cast bullet that is too hard will act just like a full metal jacket, one that is softer will expand very nicely. I have found the speed limit for an alloy that expands nicely on deer sized game is about 1500 fps - over that I get groups opening up.
Do your part, make sure you can hit a vital organ before you pull the trigger and make sure that your bullet is soft enough to expand and you will have one shot kills.

[pilot]

All the loads you guys have talked about so far are hotter than the muzzle loader I have used to kill deer with. It seems to work pretty well. I would also add that shot placement is the most important factor regardless of the load.

[10x]

All the loads you guys have talked about so far are hotter than the muzzle loader I have used to kill deer with. It seems to work pretty well. I would also add that shot placement is the most important factor regardless of the load.

That is an understatement. Gut shot is gut shot whether it be with a muzzle loader, a cast bullet, or a top line Buck a pop controlled expansion partition, spire pointed, boat tailed, mouse milk coated, designed for shooting through a rib then expanding in the soft lung tissue, hunting bullet.

In the 1930s my father killed moose with a 44-40. It only took one shot in the lungs so long as it was under one hundred yards and you didn't hit a rib. Shot placement counted.

[nanuk]

I have to bang my head every time I read about "Marginal" loads

I read a forum where many talk about 800yd kills on deer using all sorts of calibers.... a 165gr 30 launched at 2900fps can't be going 1600fps at 800yds.... Yet if they can hit them, it kills them.

a 45/70 going just above the speed of sound will kill a moose out to 125-150yds no effort, no expansion, just a 45cal hole all the way through.

is a deer any different with a 30cal hole all the way through at the same distance/speed?

Really.... I ask sincerely.... Cause I fail to see the difference between the above mentioned 358429 at 1400fps out of a handgun killing at 100yds (and yes, I have read MANY posts about that very thing) and a 30cal doing the same thing... What makes the 30 less potent?

the same thing happens when new shooters ask about rounds such as the 30Remington, or 300savage.... all the Magnumites say it is marginal! Yet a friend of mine has been killing moose, elk and deer for 45years with a 300 savage99.... Never worries about losing them. Keeps his shots within 200yds....

then lets add the .45cal RB muzzleloader to the mix