Cast bullets for self defense?

[jwp475]

I carry factory JHP's in my LCP and 1911 (unless it is in bear territory) just due to the fact of the legal ramifications of carrying "handloads". That word can be twisted into an "evildoer" that manufactures ammunition to be "extremely deadly". If the wrong lawyer gets you in his sights I would rather not give him anything to try to turn the blame onto me if I ever had to use my CCW.

There is absolute no facts to support this claim. It is simply repeated over and over. Ones choice of ammo would not be the deciding factor in determining a good shoot from a bad one

[sundog]

So, let's see. Prior to the invent of jacketed bullets everyone killed in self defense was done so in an illegal shoot.

The Heller decision made great use of historical data from the time of the writing and adoption of the Bill of Rights. If I remember history correctly, there were a lot of lead bullets being used at that time. Has something changed?

Whoever started this KARPOLLA about using factory loaded self defense ammo ought to be taken out behind the wood shed..., and shot with a lead bullet. Just like the founding fathers intended.

The legal system is rift with people who present themselves as 'expert witness' and really don't the difference between KARPOLLA and lead bullets. They just talk like they are expert, and trial lawyers present them as such to courts that many times don't know any better, i.e, ignorance.

[jameslovesjammie]

I think Massad has alot of people on his case about the use of handloads in self defense. He is a contributor to Personal Defense TV on The Sportsmans Channel, and over Christmas he had a 30 second clip about how he is right about the use of handloads for personal defense, despite how often he has to argue with "internet firearms experts," or something along those lines.

[jameslovesjammie]

I should also add that Personal Defense TV is a Guns and Ammo production...which would explain why they have Massad and Clint Smith on their shows.

[btroj]

At this point in his life he isn't going to back down.

His welcome to his opinion, and that's what it is.

I suppose that in the spirit of full disclosure I hate scout scopes and don't load my 1911 to it's full potential.. There gos another "expert" I don't listen to. Dang, I must be an idiot.

[thehouseproduct]

Under the tail I would think.

I think it's also important to note that this line above is probably the funniest thing I read today.

[jh45gun]

My personal opinion is I always thought Massad was a legend in his own mind. I never cared for him as a writer and I would never buy any of his books or read his articles in the gun rags. He is full of bovine excrement!

[357Mag]

David -

Howdy !

IMHO -
Firearms used for self defense pretty much all started out discharging lead.

The past 35yr has seen a lot of debate over what works ( handgun wise ) for self defense.

The inadequacy of the stock .38Spl and 9mm loads to give reliable " stops " gave rise to things like "+P" loads; which themselves are basically a confirmation that
traditional .38SPl and 9m loads are marginal at best; for use in self-defense.

What is sometimes talked about is " stopping power " or " shock down " power.
The schoool of thought with those is: If you have someone high on PCP trying to remove your head from your neck, you'd be best served by a self defense round that can deliver the maximum stopping power you are able to put on target.

Looking cartridges that have garnered a decent one-shot stop record, the floor level for adequate KE appears to be around 425ft lbs. The well-known .45ACP hardball round achieves this level of power. The one-time king of one-shot stops
....the .357Mag..... signifcantly exceeds 425ft lbs in developed KE ( when shot from 4" guns ). The 9mm and .38+ Ps struggle to attain this level of energy.

Without even looking, I' ll betcha the popular .40 S & W is able to achieve or exceed 425ft lb w/ a variety of loads & barrel lengths.
.38-40 was the .40 S & W of yesteryear, achieving a balance of adequate bullet wt, vel, controlability, and attainable usefull KE.... all with a lead bullet.
Yet, who uses one for self defense, today ? Not many.

That being said, very few of the above cartridges mentioned above, are rated high on the stopping power scale; when leads loads ( results ) are being tallied. It's a "J"-word and even more often, a "JHP" bullet that has been/is providing the best results.

Most of the engagements take place @ arms-length to 7yds out.
That only complicates the scenario for likely successfull use of a lead bullet for self-defense; and gives rise to the serious question of potential " shoot-through".

Again... IMHO.

With regards,
357Mag

[subsonic]

While Massad has said things I disagree with, so have plenty of people. A lot of the things he says are very sound. I don't think I'll ever find a person that I agree 100% with on any subject, but that does not mean that I do not consider the other opinions or ask for advice from others.

If we all knew everything, these forums would be pretty worthless and quite boring.

Sometimes you can take information from several sources and find that the sum is more than the total of the info.

Let common sense (if you have any) be your guide.

Also, I seriously would not want to be in a gunfight with anyone, especially someone who shoots as well in competition as Massad does.

Now do you see many gang bangers shooting IDPA, IPSC, or even PRACTICING any marksmanship skills? Putting shots on target accurately in a short amount of time while moving to cover or at least concealment seems like a much more important part of the equation than what ammo is in the gun.

You can never miss fast enough or use a "deadly" enough bullet to make a miss worth much of anything. Unless we are talking ordinance....

[waksupi]

Wouldn't a person look a lot more blood thirsty, if the LEO's after a shooting found 5000 .45 ACP's loaded with cast boolits in a home, along with one box of supposed man stopper commercial loads? And the gun used had the commercial loads in it? That looks a lot more like intent to me.

[35remington]

It's been pointed out that if someone used factory 357 magnum hollowpoints instead of factory 25 ACP hollowpoints he also could be called "bloodthirsty."

Invalidation of the "no handloads for self defense" argument then follows. No handloads were involved, yet "bloodthirstiness" is still present if the argument holds water.

Which it does not.

It's all hanging on "dissimilar gunshot powder residue" now. And even more questionably so.

[Bad Water Bill]

I think if you hit someone with ANY of the above mentioned rounds all but the most strung out crack heads are going to stop bothering you. They are now in a world of pain and want it to stop.

IIRC that expert was an AUXILIARY LEO in a small town. Wow that should really make him the ultimate expert. Now if he walked a beat in N Y, Chicago, Detroit etc I might have believed him when he started sticking his pen in the bull puckie and calling it gospel. It stunk then just like it does today.

[btroj]

I don't care what level of law enforcement he worked. I want to see a body of case law that shows this is a real issue. Not a potential issue but something that has been used to hang people out to dry.
If you can show me a number, say 10 cases, where the use of reloads was an issue in determining guilt or innocence and I might buy it. Until then, it is just one guys opinion.

Maybe I will really walk the line and use high velocity cast reloads for self defense in a micro groove barrel! Or worse, a Glock! If I am gonna go down for breaking the rules I want to get my money's worth!

Yeah, sarcasm intended.

[aarolar]

What I don't understand about all this is if your involved in a so called "good shoot" are they really going to even pay attention to what ammo is left in your gun? Even if they do will they question you about the brand? How will they possibly determine that they are handloads vs factory without extensive research? I personally don't think ammo used will even get a second look in a "good shoot".

[ammohead]

You mean, some of you actually "buy" handgun bullets? Haven't you learned anything on this site? There ain't nothin you can do with a commercial handgun bullet that can't be done with a hand cast boolit.

Seen any buffalo lately?

[Catshooter]

I don't know why a handload couldn't be tested for gunshot residue. I use 4.7 grains of Universal Clays in my 45 auto.

If my lawyer loads some of my boolits over 4.7 grains of Unversal Clays I don't know why they couldn't compare to the loads I shot in self defense. Makes sense to me.

But then again I'm not a famous gun mag writer . . .


Cat

[saz]

Ok, I did not intend to insult anyone or bring up a subject that has been beat to death. I obviously did and I apologize. BUT, this is not info I got from reading an article (although I have read it before). I had a soldier a couple years ago who got into a little bit of trouble over an incident that involved firearms in his home (WAY too long of a story to get in to now); I got in touch with the NRA and asked for a list of lawyers who were familiar with this type of case. The guy he dedided to go with was a very down to earth guy, hunter, fisherman etc.... and we got to talking after the fact and I asked him if there was any truth to it. He simply replied "there may be the SLIMMEST of chance someone may try to come after you for such a thing, but it is up to you weather you would take the chance or not". Now I have a CCW of some shape or form with me when I leave the house BECAUSE I do not like to leave anything to chance which is my personal decision, as is my decision for what ammunition I carry. I may change my mind later on down the road, who knows.

Now just to clarify, I have been in a gunfight or two over the years and I will say that YES, bullets being shot at you are scary no matter what size they are. Now as far as selecting the best ammunition/boolit we all have our own opinions based on various things like what we read, testing at the range or just real world experiences. IMHO the first step is making sure you have something that will go bang every time you squeeze the trigger.

[Bret4207]

There's absolutely NOTHING wrong in choosing to carry factory saz, not a thing. The issue is one of what the individual chooses to do and the problem is that there are a zillion self appointed experts out there willing to spout off at length about something based on a magazine article they read once 15 years ago. And then to top it off, they will come down hard on those who don't follow their path! Doesn't matter if it's handloads and SD, wearing gloves while casting, the "need" for "hardcast" or Ford/Chevy/Dodge is better, some knothead will stick to his opinion based on nothing more than a story he read for all his life.

Do the research on your own. I've done it, it's boring as can be, but you'll find out the is no criminal case where the handloads themselves were an issue. In fact, of the cases that are germane to the issue, most losses appeared to be because of very poor attorneys that didn't have a clue about ballistics. Like Catshooter said- duplicate the handload. I'm sure most of us know that factory loads vary over time, powders change form lot to lot. The argument is simply more and more inane as time passes.

[Bret4207]

Can you sight any cases of "over penetration" colatral damage? Since :EO's miss around 80 percent of the shots that they fired it would seem that misses far are more dangerous than a bullet "over penetrating"

If you check the stats you'll find everyone misses 80% or whatever of their shots in a gun fight, not just cops, especially after the first shot is fired.

[Alan]

Actually, I think the stat for non-police justifiable shootings is the revers. 80-90% hits. Citizens are generally engaging at shorter distances for one thing.

And there is the whole professional/enthusiast thing: Who would you rather have sex with? A professional or an enthusiast?