AR 458 SOCOM VS Marlin 1895GS 45-70 MY Thoughts. :)

[JesterGrin_1]

Yep the 458 SOCOM would be a thumper but I have a Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 so I am trying to think if there is any real advantage to the 458 SOCOM in the AR platform.

I know that with a standard 30 round AR-15 clip it will hold 10 maybe 11 rounds of 458 SOCOM and the 40 round clip will hold 14-15 rounds and have read that with some of those high round count round mags you can hold 40-45 rounds. which in the end would make it a heavy dude lol. Plus with the recoil of the 458 SOCOM you are not going to have what people would call fast follow up shots lol.

The Marlin Holds 5 rounds but it is lighter I think and very handy and not all that hard to throw rounds into the mag tube. Plus if walking around someplace people will not really give a Lever gun a second look but an AR Platform they will give a hard look and not a good one in general.

I think where the AR platform and the 458 SOCOM would really shine would be with a short 14" or 16" barrel in Dangerous BEAR country and close range you could throw some lead pretty fast if needed.

Come to think of it I am surprised that all of the Police and Game Officials up in Alaska do not carry the 458 SOCOM in the AR platform. As all they would have to do is have two uppers one in .223 and the other a 458 SOCOM if they felt the need. Instead of a 12 Gauge Slug gun.

And I forgot to mention have you priced 458 SOCOM ammo lol. $80.00 per box of 20. Thank goodness Starline has brass and they are easy to load for with easy to get bullets. . I pucker just thinking of $4.00 per round lol.

I just now checked lol. At Starline the 458 SOCOM Brass runs 250 for $204.00 and 500 for $340.50 about Double the cost of 45-70 brass.

So Yes I think I talked myself out of the 458 SOCOM as you do not get the same bang for the buck as 45-70 plus there is no big advantage for the 458 SOCOM unless you have a need for something compact that can carry double or triple the rounds of a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun.

But then again if you hit anything with a 300 to 500 Gr bullet going between 1500 FPS and 2300 FPS and it smiles at you then you know you have some real problems ahead lol. And you might have thoughts that maybe you should not have put that scope on that rifle as it will really hurt when that brute puts it up your Keister lol.

But I still feel the .358 Winchester in an AR type Platform would be the Bees Knees. Too bad at least for myself it is cost prohibitive.

Speaking of the .358 Winchester here is a good read. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm

[stubshaft]

See if you talk it out you reach the right decision.

[JesterGrin_1]

See if you talk it out you reach the right decision.

Yep I was looking for a problem that was not there lol.

Is the AR 458 SOCOM Neat Heck yes. Will it really do more and be more accurate than a lowly Marlin Nope not really.

[TXGunNut]

Had an old Marine sniper tell me why he likes his bolt guns. He said with a gas-operated rifle you have to wait for the bullet to travel most all the way down the barrel, wait for the gas system to build up pressure and finally cycle the bolt to eject the spent brass and load a fresh round. With his bolt gun he could work that bolt as fast as he wanted to! I've applied his logic to leverguns as well, obviously. I only uncase the black gun when I want someone to be nervous. Besides, if you empty a GG magazine and haven't solved the problem...you have a very serious problem-hopefully solved by a quick reload.
Gotta admit that 458 SOCOM would make an awesome hog gun, especially on a population control hunt.

[JesterGrin_1]

HOG was my whole thinking behind it but in the end I feel that it can not do anymore then my Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 can do. Well I guess the Marlin just needs a bit more practice is all working the lever.

[TXGunNut]

I agree. My brother is looking at the 300AAC Blackout (or whatever it's called) for a quick 2nd or even 3rd shot on groups of hogs. Even considering a suppressor, mebbe a dot sight. I guess I need to show him what a box-stock M&P 15 will do, even better, show him what his thutty-thutty will do.

[JesterGrin_1]

A Thutty-Thutty with a Red Dot would work just fine. Or even a low power scout scope set up.

[Haggway]

I debated between the 458 socom and the 450 bushmaster. I ended up with the 450 because of ammo cost. funny thing is I still look at my 45-70's more often.

[TXGunNut]

His thutty-thutty is a nice pre-angle-eject/post 64 and he still sees buckhorn sights just fine. I found it in a used gun rack yrs ago with his DOB in the serial number, had to buy it for him. A nice 92 in 45 Colt would be quicker and hit plenty hard, mebbe I need to give him some direction.
I think a big-bore AR would make a nice hog thumper but I like my leverguns, even if they have to wear peeps or glass these days.

[Markbo]

I'll challenge any of you old timey lever guys to shoot high power .45-70 loads - no mouse phart loads - as fast as I can shoot a .458 SOCOM. Any day. Or any professional sniper with a bolt gun. Any day. We can bet on that and also on how fast you reload 5 rounds into your lever gun vs me loading 5 more via magazine.

If you carry any rifle with the sole purpose of making people nervous, you are - in my own personal opinion - carrying a gun for the wrong reason.

It's attitudes like that that give the AR a bad name to start with. This is not a black gun vs. wood and blued steel conversation. This turned from a rambling thought process on a choice to bad mouthing the AR platform. If you don't want one, don't get one, but don't demonize it because it isn't YOUR first choice, OK Jim Zumbo???

The .458 SOCOM is a damned fine hog gun. Good for deer or any other small to medium game too. It is NOT a bear gun! It does not duplicate the .45-70 with heavier loads. It is more like a .45-70 special. It is a tool like any other gun and I use them as such... to scare or intimidate people is never a reason to carry anything.

p.s. Like most other loads, reloading brings that cost WAY down.

[starmac]

You do not see many semi auto's in use in the woods in alaska, there are some predator hunters using ar's, but that is pretty much when the bears are sleeping.
That said it seems like there ar a lot of ar type guns in all calibers around here, but mainly to play with, bolt guns are by far the most common in the woods.

[TXGunNut]

If you carry any rifle with the sole purpose of making people nervous, you are - in my own personal opinion - carrying a gun for the wrong reason. -Markbo


I'm sorry if I offended you, my friend, I suppose an explanation is due. I don't much care for black guns but mine used to ride in the trunk of a patrol car, some nights between the front seats. The only time it came out in public was in a bad situation involving (allegedly) bad people. I like my bad guys nervous, Markbo. If you like them bold and cocky that's your business. My goal was to make arrests safely and make sure all my guys, including me, went home at the end of our shift. Black guns deployed effectively make bad folks nervous and compliant, that's the only reason I keep one around today. BTW I competed in PPC for nearly 20 years, dabbled in IPSC and NRA Action/Bianchi Cup, Outdoor Pistol and even competed in Patrol Rifle shooting so I was quick enough in those days, just don't much care for it these days. Still practice now and then, just enjoy my old-fashioned guns more.
As for speed I only shoot as fast as I can hit. Don't need to carry much ammo that way, especially with a moderate-to-heavy boolit in a 45-70 @ +/- 1700 fps. Had to shoot a PO'd hog a second time-once. Other times the 4-5 extra rounds were just baggage.
Just because I and like-minded folks enjoy leverguns in walnut and blue steel doesn't mean we're old, slow and don't know our way around black guns. Some of us are damned good with them, we just have other interests these days.

[Boerrancher]

Just because I and like-minded folks enjoy leverguns in walnut and blue steel doesn't mean we're old, slow and don't know our way around black guns. Some of us are damned good with them, we just have other interests these days.

+1 to that. I have been through all the fancy Army Training, Sniper School, SAPPER School (the old one not the easy revamped one), and was also selected for SF but was wounded and discharged before I could attend the school. There was several times out on the qualification ranges that I would put several hundred dollars in my pocket, shooting a perfect score 40/40 with my Sharps 45-70, a single shot. Many of those high speed wizbang officers and NCOs only knew about black guns and had no idea how fast a single shot rifle could be loaded and accurately fired. For those of you who don't know the qualification range is pop up targets from 50 to 400 meters, and depending on the range stay up at varied intervals. The shortest time is like 4 seconds on the 50 meter target. The longest is 12 seconds on the 400 meter target while shooting doubles. With the shells laid out properly even 4 seconds is a long time.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Markbo]

TGN I admit that your LEO usage never even entered my mind. My line of thinking was strictly for hunting and I thought that was what you were talking about since you mentioned hogs. I apologize if I came off too strong and I'm sure I did. A little clarity of context helps a lot.

[bigdog454]

semi auto Hog Gun? why not just use a SKS, about the same as a 30-30 but 10 to whatever round mag.
BD

[Markbo]

I don't know who you are addressing that too bigdog, but I don't own an SKS. Wouldn't own an SKS. I am an AR kind of guy. Have multiple lowers and several different caliber uppers.

[TXGunNut]

TGN I admit that your LEO usage never even entered my mind. My line of thinking was strictly for hunting and I thought that was what you were talking about since you mentioned hogs. I apologize if I came off too strong and I'm sure I did.-Markbo

Not a problem, my friend. I seldom take a black gun along on a hunting trip except under special circumstances. I showed up on a hog hunt 10 yrs ago this month with my patrol rifle behind the seat and my "oh-no!" bag in the front floor of my pickup. Guide shook his head, I was just following orders. Took one on my last trip because hogs and coyotes needed thinning. As a rule, tho, a black gun is strictly social equipment for me. I don't have a problem with folks using black guns for hunting but I simply don't want or need what a black gun has to offer in a hunting situation. I'm toying with a .300 AAC upper for hunting but my project list is long and my funds are flowing out faster than they're flowing in. Works for our Esteemed Leader, not so much for me.
And ya'll lay off the SKS's, OK? Those little buggars are cheap, dirty fun! Mosins look like fun, too, but this tangent has no place on a "Leverguns" thread. And no, I don't own an SKS or Mosin but I see folks having fun with them on most range trips.

[TXGunNut]

My apologies, JesterGrin_1. Didn't intend to sidetrack your thread. Since I hang out and you posted on the "leverguns" room I obviously favor the Marlin 45-70 but the SOCOM idea has merit as well. We all "need" another hog gun.

[JesterGrin_1]

One could say it kinda went off into left field but I think it left the field and into the parking lot lol.

But it did help solidify my own thinking. And that is for my use there would be no advantage for the 458 SOCOM over the Marlin in 45-70. Which is good as it saves me Money.

[fireball168]

Just rebarrel a 336/1895 in 458 BFG, and be done with it(find somebody else to do it though).

Then you'll be able to shoot 458 SOCOM(with a 35 Remington bolt installed), or the rimmed 458 BFG(with the 45-70 bolt installed) in a lever gun.

It was a moderately interesting project for a more potent lever gun to meet Indiana's 1.625" Pistol Caliber Rifle cartridge definition in years past.

It didn't keep my interest long, but it was fun to play with for awhile(after I got it running).