Savage Gives Up on .300 AAC

[bowfin]

From the Savage website:

http://www.savagearms.com/

300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.

It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.

Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

[Nobade]

I have to laugh when I see this. If Savage would make a barrel that was actually .308" in the grooves so it would seal the gas behind it, and didn't get bigger toward the muzzle, they wouldn't have accuracy problems.

I have built quite a few 300BLK guns with Kreiger and Brux barrels and they are all super accurate either super or subsonic.

[fireball168]

No accuracy complaints as of yet for any of the 300 Blackout Savage barrels I'm peddling.

[Gtek]

Any bets it is a PC move. They ( Corporate Lawyers) can stand the hunt and Police style weapons
but I have a feeling the 300 gives them the willies! Gtek

[HARRYMPOPE]

Ruger had the 308 XG1 that wouldn't work for them either.The Ruger would put the first shot out of a magazine that was racked by hand at a wild point of impact.they couldn't solve it so they scrapped it.
Some things just dont work for a companies standards.

[Gunnut 45/454]

Well Rem 220 subs out of my 16" carbine 1:8" twist, unsurpressed give me a quarter sized group at 25 yards! Thats with a 4 MOA red dot! It's hard to believe they can't get good accuracy with a bolt gun. Weird.

[HARRYMPOPE]

that's about 3-3/4" at 100 yards.If they got MOA it wouldn't be good enough to market for them i bet.I doubt that they are being dishonest.

[35remington]

If they said that with their rifles they could not get it to shoot properly, nobody would be able to prove them wrong. They are their own producer, after all.

Given that nobody here knows just what Savage tried to get the cartridge to shoot, perhaps it would be a good idea to take them at their word. If you think other manufacturers can make it work, buy their products.

Given that a super slow, very long bullet can have stabilization issues even in fast twists at low speed, and is temperature and altitude sensitive at just under the subsonic range, I don't find their comments all that hard to believe.

[bowfin]

that's about 3-3/4" at 100 yards.If they got MOA it wouldn't be good enough to market for them

That's actually shooting as well as a 4 MOA red dot is capbable. I think one would need a more precise sight to see what the shooter/gun/cartrdige set up is capable of producing.

I'm not knocking red dots, as we used them for years when scopes were illegal during muzzleloader season. With a 4 MOA dot, we would use the top of the dot as the aiming point.

[paul h]

Having shot subsonic loads out of a 300 whisper contender handgun that would litterally put all shots into the same whole at 80 yds (snow was too deep to hike to the 100yd berm), I find that hard to believe. The 300 whisper has been around for decades, and there is plenty of experience loading and shooting it in a variety of platforms.

My guess would be if they are shooting factory ammo, whoever is loading the ammo isn't able to through consistant powder charges. The subsonic loads use relativel small powder charges, and if the ammo manufacturer is using powder throwers that can't hold tight consistant charges, I'd bet this would be the issue.

[L1A1Rocker]

Well, let's see here. . . If you take a cartridge designed to be shot from a 1:8 twist barrel that is 16 inches long producing muzzle velocity of 1010 fps; and then fire said cartridge from 1:10 twist barrel that is 20 inches long what do YOU think the results will be?

These results that Savage got were either planned, or the person behind the project knows nothing about shooting/load development.

On edit: Wilson Combat recently announced an 18 inch 300BLK barrel. I'm not expecting stellar accuracy from that barrel with factory sub sonics either.

[L1A1Rocker]

My guess would be if they are shooting factory ammo, whoever is loading the ammo isn't able to through consistant powder charges. The subsonic loads use relativel small powder charges, and if the ammo manufacturer is using powder throwers that can't hold tight consistant charges, I'd bet this would be the issue.

Actually the problem is that Savage didn't follow the SAMI specs. By putting ammo designed to attain 1010fps from 16 inch barrel through a 20 inch barrel the bullet is coming out the barrel in that very (and ALWAYS to be avoided) unstable trans sonic speed. I suspect that a custom hand load that produced muzzle velocity of 1010 fps out of their 20 inch barrel would improve their accuracy problem. So would going to a 1:8 twist.

[Rocky Raab]

If I had to guess who knew more about gun design, ballistics, and accuracy, and the choices were the pros at Savage versus an anonymous voice on the internet, I'd vote for the guys at Savage.

Just sayin'

[L1A1Rocker]

If I had to guess who knew more about gun design, ballistics, and accuracy, and the choices were the pros at Savage versus an anonymous voice on the internet, I'd vote for the guys at Savage.

Just sayin'

I wonder why "the pros at Savage" didn't follow SAMI specs??? Maybe they are more knowledgeable about gun design, ballistics, and accuracy, than those that did all the research and development on the 300BLK and ammo for it. Then again, they couldn't do what others are . . .

Just sayin' a'course.

[btroj]

I wish they had gone thru with it. I personally don't care aout subsonic, heavy bullets. I see the 300 AAC and 300 Whisper as having great potential as cast bulelt cartridges. Give me a 1/10 twist and let me have at it.
Oh, I want a barrel longer than 16 inches too. And no muzzle threads

[leadman]

I've been shooting a Custom Contender 18" barrel with 1 in 8 twist for over 10 years now.
Very accurate with super sonic 125gr Nosler BTs. It does real well with 11 to 11.5grs of WC680 behind a 314299 sized .310" and weighs around 206grs depending on alloy. This is gas checked and most of the time air cooled WW.
One day I put 50 rounds in a 100 yard target in about 3", no cleaning and steady firing.

I have shot the Sierra 240 and 220gr match bullets at 100 yards and they were from 2" to 3" groups. I then shot the same loads at 200 yards, with the same group sizes. Guess it just takes awhile for the bullet to settle down.

The heavy bullet loads are interesting, but you really need a mil-dot scope or alot of adjustment to shoot these at differing ranges. The drop is crazy beyond 100 yards.

I have taken a fair amount of game with it to include mule deer so it does serve a purpose.

I think the difficulty connecting with the target at long range is causing many people to give up on their gun. Sure see alot for sale around here.

[Ed in North Texas]

I wonder why "the pros at Savage" didn't follow SAMI specs??? Maybe they are more knowledgeable about gun design, ballistics, and accuracy, than those that did all the research and development on the 300BLK and ammo for it. Then again, they couldn't do what others are . . .

Just sayin' a'course.

Answer 1: They figured out there would never be enough people interested in this caliber to bother putting it in the lineup.

Answer 2: They didn't consult you.

Ed

[L1A1Rocker]

Answer 1: They figured out there would never be enough people interested in this caliber to bother putting it in the lineup.

Ed

I guess their crystal ball says something other than what other manufactures' does.

Edit to add a list of companies making 300 BLK products, courtesy of Robert Silvers:

* AAC - uppers, rifles, silencers, and ammunition.
* Adams Arms - rifles and uppers.
* Addax Tactical
* Alexander Arms - rifles.
* All Weather Arms - brass processing.
* Ambush Firearms - rifles.
* Arnold's Ammo - ammo.
* AR-Stoner - barrels.
* Atlanta Arms - ammo.
* Armalite - rifles, barrels, uppers.
* AR-X Enterprises - barrels, uppers, rifles.
* Barnes Bullets - ammo, bullets.
* Barnes Precision Machine - barrels, uppers.
* Bergara - barrels
* BFG Cartridges - Savage barrels.
* Black Dawn Firearms - AR rifles.
* Black Hills Ammunition - ammo.
* Black Hole Weaponry - barrels.
* Brad's Warehouse - converted brass.
* Bushmaster Firearms - uppers and rifles.
* BVAC - ammo.
* BWE Firearms - rifles, uppers, and suppressors.
* Centurion Arms - barrels, uppers, and rifles.
* Chattahoochee Gun Works - uppers, rifles.
* CMMG - barrels, uppers, and ammo.
* Compass Lake Engineering - AR barrels.
* Cor-Bon - ammo
* Core15 - rifles, uppers.
* Custom Reloads of Dallas - ammo.
* CVA.
* Daniel Defense - rifles.
* Delta Company Arms - rifles, barrels, uppers.
* Dillon Precision - reloading conversion kits.
* Double Star - rifles.
* Double Tap - ammunition.
* DPMS - rifles and uppers.
* DS Arms - rifles and uppers.
* ER Shaw - barrels.
* Forster - reloading dies.
* Freedom Munitions - ammunition.
* Glockplates.com - ejection port cover.
* Grim Reaper Tactical - barrels, uppers, lowers, and rifles.
* Gunn - ammunition.
* High Precision Range - ammunition.
* Hornady - ammo, dies, brass.
* Houston Armory - barrels.
* Hunting Shack - ammunition.
* Kel-Tec - SU16C.
* Kiss Tactical - lowers.
* Lee - reloading dies, bullet molds.
* Lehigh Defense - bullets, ammo.
* L.E. Wilson - case gauges.
* Lewis Machine and Tool - barrels, uppers, rifles.
* Liberty - rifles and suppressors.
* Loki Weapon Systems - uppers/rifles.
* Lone Star Armory - 300 AAC BLACKOUT marked lowers.
* Lothar Walther - barrels.
* LWRCI - rifles.
* Marks Armory - uppers.
* Match Grade Machine - Thompson barrels.
* McGowen Barrel - Savage and other barrels.
* McCourt Munitions - ammo.
* Missouri cast bullets - bullets.
* Model 1 Sales - AR barrels/uppers.
* Montana Rifleman - barrels.
* Mossberg - MVP rifle.
* MSAR - AUG rifle, barrel.
* NAP-TAC - barrels.
* NOE Bullet Moulds - bullet moulds.
* Northern Rifleman - uppers.
* Noveske - rifles and uppers.
* Olympic Arms - rifles and uppers.
* One Shot - ammo.
* Pac-Nor - barrels.
* Outlaw State Bullets - bullets.
* Pacific Tool and Gauge - reamers and gauges.
* PalmettoStateArmory - uppers, barrels.
* PNW Arms - ammo.
* Primary Weapons Systems - rifles and uppers.
* Profire Arms & Supply - ammo.
* Quentin Defense - lowers.
* Rainier Arms - barrels.
* Raven Armament Company - ammo and uppers.
* RCBS - dies.
* Redline Firearms llc - uppers.
* Red Star Ammunition.
* Red X Arms.
* Redding - dies.
* Remington - ammunition.
* Right 2 Bear Ammo - ammunition.
* River Valley Ordnance - reformed brass.
* Robarms - XCR Micro rifle.
* RMW / Ron Williams - barrels.
* RUAG - ammo.
* Satern Custom Machining, Inc. - barrels.
* Seekins Precision - rifles.
* Selph Arms LLC - barrels, uppers, re-chambering, and rifles.
* Sheepdog Ammo - ammo.
* SI Defense - barrels.
* Sig Sauer - rifles.
* Silver State Armory - brass, ammo.
* Smith & Wesson - rifles, uppers.
* SNIPERCO - uppers.
* Sierra - bullets.
* SilencerCo - silencers.
* Sota Arms - barrels.
* Southern Ballistic Research - ammo.
* Southwest Ammunition, LLC - ammo.
* Spike's Tactical - uppers and rifles.
* Summit - ammo.
* Surefire - 300 BLK sound suppressor.
* S.W.O.R.D. International - rifles.
* Tactical Machining - lowers.
* The Bullet Works - bullets and ammunition.
* Top Notch Tactical - ammo.
* Triton Arms - AR barrels.
* 2 VETS ARMS CO LLC - rifles/uppers.
* Ultra Tech - ammo (Australia)
* Umlaut Industries - 300 BLK caliber marked Rifles, Upper and Lowers. 16" and 10" Factory Title II.
* Underground Tactical Arms - uppers.
* White Oak Precision - AR barrels.
* Whidden Gunworks - trim dies.
* Wilson Combat - rifles, hunting and self defense ammunition.

Answer 2: They didn't consult you.

It's not about me, it's about SAMI specifications - that Savage didn't follow.

[btroj]

Does SAAMI have specs for barrel length and twist? I thout they dealt more in chamber drawings and max pressure, not barrel length and twist rate.

[L1A1Rocker]

Does SAAMI have specs for barrel length and twist? I thout they dealt more in chamber drawings and max pressure, not barrel length and twist rate.

In most cases rifle cartridges "assume" a 20 inch barrel and are not noted by SAAMI. The 300 BLK was designed to run super sonic or sub sonic without the need of an adjustable gas block/tube. In doing this there was needed an extra consideration with factory sub sonic ammo standardization. In order to insure that factory sub sonic ammo stayed sub sonic, a 16 inch barrel was specified in the SAAMI specifications with 1:8 RH twist.

An additional note: It was later found that the 240gr SMK's would not consistantly stabilize with the 1:8 twist, as such most all manufacturers are in the process of switching to 1:7 twist. The 240 SMK has been the only bullet, so far, found to have stabilization issues with the 1:8 twist.

Another additional note: Anyone that has any experience working up (or down as the case may be) a sub sonic loading understands the issue of trans-sonic bullets. In plane terms - a bullet in trans-sonic velocities buffets and is very inaccurate. A typical muzzle velocity that people try to achieve is between 1010 and 1050 FPS.