Competition type seaters with cast bullets

[Mike_60]

I was looking at upgrading some of my dies and was curious if competition type seaters could be used with cast? Please forgive my ignorance if this is a dumb question.

[PbHurler]

I do use them. One caveat though; on the Redding dies anyway, I believe the Redding catalog says not recommended for cast bullets. What I've perceived is the internal honed diameter is based on loading jacketed bullets (slightly smaller in dia. than our desired, sized cast boolits). We don't have to flair the case mouths as much when we load jacketed.

The amount of case mouth flair that I generally use for cast boolits will sometimes drag on the ID of the dies' body, this is particularly noticeable on my .357 seater, other calibers have been more forgiving of the amount of case mouth flair.
IMO, these dies really shine when seating jacketed bullets, as you can really dial-in the amount of case mouth overlap of the cannelure.

I suppose one could hone the ID of the die body to increase the ID a bit if this really is a problem for you.
In general, I really like using the competition seaters I own (although they are an added expense). I believe they are a "nicety" not a necessity.

[cbrick]

I use the Redding comp seater for my FA 357 and this works very well only because of the close dimensions of the FA. Boolits are sized .357", anything larger and the seater die properly seats the boolit and promptly pulls it back out with the boolit stuck in the die. That's why Redding says not for cast, they really are made specifically for those ugly brown jacketed thingies.

Rick

[largom]

As stated above, most competition seating dies do not work for cast since our boolits are usually over sized. I use a Hornady seating die with their micrometer head attached. The Hornady die uses a sliding sleeve to center the case in the die. A seating stem slides within this sleeve to seat the bullet [jacketed]. I use one "die body" and then make my own sliding sleeve for each different caliber. I also make my own seating stems with a nose profile to match the different cast boolits. This is easy for me since I have a lathe to make the various parts with. Since most casters do not own a lathe I would still suggest that they look at the Hornady seating dies for cast boolits. The dies have enough clearance [slop] that they will work for many cast boolits.

Larry

[1hole]

"...look at the Hornady seating dies for cast boolits. The dies have enough clearance [slop] that they will work for many cast boolits."

True. Redding, Forster and Lee's seaters fit pretty tight and often don't work well with oversized bullets. But, on average, the other brands are plenty sloppy enough to work fine with oversized bullets.

Actually, most any moderate to hot powder charge will upset even the hardest cast bullets to compeletely fill the bore so it's a mystery to me why so many people think there's some magic in the current fad of fat lead bullets anyway.

[Mike_60]

Thanks for the responses they just confirm what I suspected to be true. I'll probably go ahead and get some comp dies, if for no other reason than for my J-word loads, but I guess I might be about to play around with my cast loads too.

[LUBEDUDE]

I use the Redding with cast 38\357 . It works great for me.

[fouronesix]

I'm kind of with 1hole on this. If I need a cast bullet that is grossly oversized, then what's the need for or practicality of a bench rest type seater? I don't flare case mouths but use a Lyman M die along with mostly groove diameter to about .001" over groove diameter cast bullets, so both the Redding and Forster BR seaters work OK. And yes, the Hornady type with the sliding collet usually works OK as well. With the 43 Spanish Rem RB and both 45-70 Trapdoors where the groove diameters dictate using .002-3" larger-than-nominal cast bullets, there wouldn't be much advantage to a BR seater anyway.

One other issue that hasn't been mentioned yet about using BR seaters with cast bullets also has to do with the tight tolerances and tight "throats" in most of them. It's the problem of accumulated bullet lube gumming up the works.

[btroj]

The current fad of fat bullets? You mean a .460 bullet for my Marlin instead of a .457 like "suggested"?
I use far bullets because they fill the fat bores on my rifles and handguns.

A fad it isn't, it is called fit. I use a bullet that fits from the get go rather than needing my powder charge to deform the bullet to make it fit.

As for a sleeve type seater, I like the idea. Anything we can do to make straighter am,o is a good thing. It won't matter in many situations but when it does matter, it matters a bunch.

[cbrick]

"...[I] Actually, most any moderate to hot powder charge will upset even the hardest cast bullets to compeletely fill the bore so it's a mystery to me why so many people think there's some magic in the current fad of fat lead bullets anyway.

A proper fitting boolit is magic and a fad!

Well, learn something everyday I guess.



Rick

[btroj]

Don't despair Rick, it will go away some and we can get back to sizing to a standard size for every bore.
Think of the positives. People will get to learn the joys of poor accuracy, cleaning lead from barrels, and how to make bullets really soft so they can bump up for low velocity loads!

Think of the increased value of your 50s era Lyman manuals! We can use graphite, Vaseline, and beeswax for lube and nix the concept of using wheel weights because the grit in them can erode your bore.

Wait a second. Rick, we can't use this info, we aren't old wives.......

[felix]

If the gun is worth it, custom dies are by far the best value. However, most guns in one's house are genuine toys and will not appreciate the added expense. For example, getting a two inch gun to shoot a one and a halfer is economically insane. It's far better to get that one incher to do a half-incher, even if the gun (or you) is not consistent day-to-day! ... felix

[Doc Highwall]

As stated above the Redding and Forester dies have to be opened up but the results are well worth it.
Here is a picture of a Forester die that I modified along with a new nose seating stem for the SAECO #315 bullet, and 300 yard five shot group that was loaded with this die.

[GabbyM]

Have used the Redding, Forester, RCBS Competition and Wilson hand dies in various rifle calibers with cast boolits.
What surprised me is when the Wilson hand die seater passed my .225" bullets for 223 Rem. The dies in these sets I seriously like are the bushing neck size dies. Allows us to only size the necks as much as needed. You can get bushing dies with a shoulder only bump too for guns that need that. I generally use a Lyman M die for neck expansion on the rifle brass. Another die set I really like is the RCBS Cowboy dies in 30-30 Win. They include an expander similar to the Lyman M die but with a fine surface finish. In my 223 Rem and 243 A.I. I have to neck turn to uniform case necks to insure I have a couple thousandths room for bullet release in my chambers anyway. I just knock off the high spots. So they do fit the comp type seaters by default. I don't think I'd get away with more than .002" over standard J bullet diameter in any of the competition seater dies but haven't tried it. When your bullets is lined up with one of these floating chamber type seat dies you don't need much case flare. First step on the Lyman M die and a standard deburr bevel cut in the case mouth usually gets it done. For hand gun calibers Dillon's dies are very hard to beat when running my 550B loader.

If you have some needs for non standard loading dimensions. CH4D will make custom sized die sets. They make great expander plugs to any size you want. Good case neck prep and sizing will go farther towards a well seated cast bullet than about anything. Here's a plug for there plugs. http://www.ch4d.com/dies/expanding/mplug

Had a Hornady 30-06 die set with a neck die. Neck size only die grossly oversized the necks. Was totally unimpressed with there floating seater also. Suppose you get what you pay for there.

[1hole]

"The current fad of fat bullets? You mean a .460 bullet for my Marlin instead of a .457 like "suggested"?
I use far bullets because they fill the fat bores on my rifles and handguns."

Just as a matter of common sense, your 3 thou over bullet is far from "fat"; chubby maybe, but not fat. Fat would be like .465". Or a .458" bullet for a .452" barrel, or a .312" bullet for a .308" barrel which, if reading web posts means anything, is common today. That requires the bore to do a sizer's job and bores aren't the most accurate tools to downsize fat cast bullets.

So far as fit goes, even slightly undersized jacketed bullets will set back enought to fill the bore unless the charge or bullet is very light. Many excellant jacketed .308 bullets are a half thou under the nominal diameter. Obturation comes much easier with slightly undersized cast bullets.

I don't have, I would not keep a firearm with a 'fat' bore.

I'm sure you'll learn as much about cast bullets as you think you know ... someday. But you aren't there yet.

[fouronesix]

Not regarding the various cutesy "editorial" comments about best bullet fit for best performance, back to the OP.

I found out long ago that the condition of the brass determines in large part the concentricity (runout) of a seated bullet- therefore the potential accuracy of the load. There is little a very expensive BR seater can do to correct it during the seating process. I found, even in tight tolerance Jbullet BR rifles, using the best fire formed match brass- that brass condition, quality, sizing techniques, neck expanding techniques, etc, play the biggest role in seated Jbullet bullet concentricity and that the very best BR seater cannot correct those errors during the seating process. So how in the world could it correct seating or concentricity problems with an oversized cast bullet??

I found for BR seaters w/mic, no matter if for Jbullet or cast bullet, that small adjustments to seating depths can be made more easily and quickly but not necessarily more accurately. I've found little or no advantage in the BR seaters for correcting concentricity issues during the seating process, regardless of bullet size or type.

[Love Life]

I've found competition seater dies to be a waste of money for the majority of rifles out there. Hell, I've found them to be a waste of money for my high end rifles. It's amazing how well that old threaded rod and nut work when you sort your bullets/boolits by base to ogive...

As Felix said, unless your rifle can show you the difference between ammo loaded with a $20 Lee die and a $100 comp seater die, then you are wasting your hard earned cheese.

Work on your loading technique. Brass prep, bullet sorting, charge weights, etc. What I've notice through the years is unless a die is severly out of spec, then it will load ammo that will shoot as well as or better than you can make it.

If you want to get redonk with it get a set of hand dies and an arbor press.

ETA: Loading a bullet with runout, into a case with neck and body runout, into a chamber with runout is not good. No amount of money spent on dies will correct all of that.

[btroj]

Not regarding the various cutesy "editorial" comments about best bullet fit for best performance, back to the OP.

I found out long ago that the condition of the brass determines in large part the concentricity (runout) of a seated bullet- therefore the potential accuracy of the load. There is little a very expensive BR seater can do to correct it during the seating process. I found, even in tight tolerance Jbullet BR rifles, using the best fire formed match brass- that brass condition, quality, sizing techniques, neck expanding techniques, etc, play the biggest role in seated Jbullet bullet concentricity and that the very best BR seater cannot correct those errors during the seating process. So how in the world could it correct seating or concentricity problems with an oversized cast bullet??

I found for BR seaters w/mic, no matter if for Jbullet or cast bullet, that small adjustments to seating depths can be made more easily and quickly but not necessarily more accurately. I've found little or no advantage in the BR seaters for correcting concentricity issues during the seating process, regardless of bullet size or type.

Interesting. All I know is that my 600 yard scores improved 10 to 12 points with the simple move from a Hornady seater to a Forster BR seater. Loading round runout went from around .006 to .008 to under .002.

Target told me all I needed to know. Seater was making crooked ammo.

[cbrick]

I had the same experience with 200 meter handgun groups. That's with properly prepped quality brass but yes, in the right gun, right brass they do make a difference. Would it matter in your 686 at 25 yards? Well, if it did you'd never be able to tell.

Rick

[EDG]

Do we have people that shoot better with undersize bullets and 3rd rate dies?