Forming 221 FB from 223 Rem- What's it take?

[Charlie Sometimes]

Got some military and commerical 223 cases- want to turn them into 221 Fireball. Do I need anything special that I don't already have? Asking here first. Gonna search the WWW next.
I've never done this before, but I'm sure someone else here has- looks to be a straight forward process. Need a inside neck reamer, trim die, or what? Anyone know?

Goofing around today, I ran a few 223 into the 221 sizer die without the decapper stem in it. I lubed the case with Imperial size die wax before I did (my regular size lube). It seemed to work very well, and smoothly, with very little extra force (using a Lyman Orange Crusher II press)- got a long necked 221 case in one step.

It looks like if you cut the 223 off at the shoulder it would be a little easier to trim later. I haven't tried trimming any back yet. I ran some back through the sizer die with the stem replaced. That worked okay, too. A shorter neck might have been easier, but it looks okay!

If I would trim it off and then resize it with the stem installed, would I be good?

Comments and suggestions, please!

[BCall]

It will work Charlie, I have seen it done before. You might not even need to neck ream. Do you have any brass? I would check the diameter of the neck of a fired round and then check the diameter of one of your formed cases with a bullet seated. If you have clearance, I wouldn't worry about reaming them. I might turn the necks to make sure that they are as concentric as possible without taking too much off, but I tend to like thicker necks on my brass. I feel like it helps the boolit enter the bore straighter.

I would anneal after forming and trimming though. And I would watch my loads with the military brass, as they supposedly have thicker brass, and less capacity than factory. Personally I would just form them like you did and trim afterwards, rather than trying to cut them at the shoulder first. You might try it, if you like it, go ahead. But if I was going to do some seriously, I would form, then trim with a chop saw or dremel, debur, size with expander ball, and trim to final length, and anneal. Then I would turn the necks. But that's just me. Billy

[Mk42gunner]

You might have to thin the new neck; by either inside reaming, or turning the outside. Since your new neck is now comprised of the old case body.

I know they used to sell forming dies for this, but if the cases fit you chamber with enough neck clearance, you should be good.

Be careful of your case capacity also.

Robert

[Charlie Sometimes]

I have some factory cases, and can check those dimensions. I thought about chopping them off with a dremel blade, too. I can check water capacity on some to see if there is a drastic difference, too. Never thought about annealing them. Good idea- been there, done that part before.

[Al_sway]

When I formed some for a friend's fireball, I had to neck turn the cases. I would leave the cases full length until you size them and trim the long neck when you are done.

[CENTEX BILL]

I am makeing 300/221(300 Whisper) cases from 223. I have decdided that it is a lot of work in comparsion to buying factory 221 cases and expanding them.

No doubt you can make 221 from 223 but seriously ask your self it the alledged savings really worth the hassle.

My .02.

Centex Bill

[bdbullets]

I made a thousand of them several years ago for a friends XP100(after doing about a hundred I showed him how to do it and made him come over and help). It worked great but very time consuming. I used a file type trim die to get them to length and cut them off after resizing them with a high quality small tubing cutter. If I were going to do it again I would get one of the mini chip saws from Harbor Frieght. Then I ran them up into the trim die again and finished filing to proper length. I then had to turn the necks as they were to thick for the XP. Then you will have to aneal them or they won't last more than one or two loading and the necks will split.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I am making 300/221(300 Whisper) cases from 223. I have decided that it is a lot of work in comparsion to buying factory 221 cases and expanding them.

No doubt you can make 221 from 223 but seriously ask yourself is the alledged savings really worth the hassle.

My .02.

Centex Bill

At better than $40 dollars per hundred for 221 FB- I think that makes it worth it. I am buying some to have on hand for loading and shooting, but these may be used for hunting only, so if I loose a few, then who cares. Less expense and easily replaced.

I've never needed to form cases before, so this is FUN too. A new learning experience in my favorite hobby!

[Charlie Sometimes]

I have also thought about cutting some of the excess neck off above final OAL, and opening the necks up with an M-die to ease trimming. I use the Lee trimmer guages and cutter method, and have it motorized. Makes trimming lots of cases fast. Then you could resize, and anneal.

I have also considerd using a LEE collet neck sizing die from the 22 Hornet set I have, to squeeze the neck around the mandrel to lessen the thickness some, if it is found to be over-sized. I checked, and with the longer neck of the Hornet it will require placing a 1/4 inch thick metal shim around the case on top of the ram to allow the die to do it's job. Might give it a try and see what comes out, after I check all of these other dimensions previously mentioned.

[TheOldGreybeard]

I went to the bother to make some 20 VarTarg cases from .222 brass, which was all new or once fired. I cut them off around the shoulder with a small band saw, then formed them and trimmed with a proper trimmer. They were much too thick in the neck, so I neck turned them and then they fit just about perfect.

After all that, I failed to anneal the new necks, and they are cracking at a ferocious rate after only 1 or 2 firings...

I did it to prove to myself that I could....and I could, however, it wasn't worth the effort, especially since I FAILED to finish with annealing.

You may not need to neck turn, or if so, not much, for the fireball, and if you remember to anneal, you might very well find the effort worthwhile. More power to ya', I say. It's good to have the skills to change things.

I usually use a Redding body die for initial forming...

[Charlie Sometimes]

I checked Midsouth today- Redding has a trim and forming die for about $23. RCBS a form die for about $32! Not. I will probably get the Redding die.

Took one of the formed cases today and resized and trimmed it about 3 times, and seated a V-MAX bullet in it to check chambering- NO GO! Neck is too thick, and won't allow the bolt to get near closing. Gonna have to neck turn or ream! Which would be better?

The M-Die was unnecessary. Neck was not tight on the trimming mandrel. Didn't get to try the neck sizing collet die (I will tomorrow) and see if the cartridge will fit then. My neighbor has a bandsaw. Might get with him and cut a few cases down for more experimentation!

After I get it figured out what all I need to do- annealing will be in order. I will NOT forget, or get lazy at that juncture! Thanks for the warning.

[hhranch]

I recently made some .221 cases from some military and old .17 Remington cases. Very lightly lubed the cases, ran them into a Redding file type trim/form die, cut off the excess with a hacksaw (fine tooth), then ran them through the full length sizing die, trimmed on a Forester case trimmer and then annealed. Resulting case necks were too thick, so outside turned them. Shot under 1" with a takeoff barrel I put on my Remington 600 test bed. It is probably easier to buy them, but if you have a good source of inexpensive or no cost military brass, you can make good cases. I have also used this process to make .17 Mach IV cases after forming the .221s, but this was before the .17 Fireball. All you really need is the form/trim die.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Is outside turning better/easier? Seems it would be more expensive to get the necessary tools. Or would reaming be better? Just the expense of the reamer then?

[BCall]

Personally I would turn the necks. You can control how much you take off then. Hard to control that with a reamer. Take off just enough to allow the bullet to release, and you have in a sense created a tight neck chamber. JMO, Billy

[Marine Sgt 2111]

When I first bought a Remington 700 in .17 FB you couldn't find brass anywhere so I made my own out of .222 Remingtons. Using a redding forming (.221 FB) die I moved about 1/2 of the shoulder diameter back to the proper .221 FB location on the case. The second step was to use a .221 FB full length sizing die. Then came a redding forming die for .17 MKIV (which is halfway between .224 and .172 and finally a .17 FB full length sizing die. I trimmed the cases to length on a drill press and turned the necks at the same time using a forester power cutter, od neck turner and a .17 pilot. After I have fired them all to form them to chamber dims. I will anneal their necks.

As a side note, two days after I went through the above forming of some two hundred cases....Midway notified me that .17 FB cases had come in...argh!!!!

[FN in MT]

I made a few hundred several years back from once fired Military 5.56mm brass.

Used a REDDING file trim die, then ran into tight neck issues. So bought a new FORSTER trimmer with all the inside/outside neck reaming gear.

Finally found the happy medium with neck eaming and started splitting necks. So tried the annealing process. Worked fine, but at 4-5 firings the necks started splitting again.

Sold the rifle, bought a Cooper .222 Rem instead. FAR easier to simply BUY cases IMHO. I could rationalize all the fooling around IF cases were rare or prohibitively expensive. They are not.

But...an interesting project that teaches a guy a thing or two...HOW we all learn.

HANDLOADER or RIFLE mag had an article on this very issue a dozen or more years back. I have most all of both magazines...anyone know the year? or issue #?

FN in MT

[wiljen]

I'll parrot FN in MT on the neck turning and splits. I've had the same issue with making both .221 and .222 out of .223 brass. It works well for about 4 loadings but even with annealing every other firing few last past 6 firings before they split. Factory 222 brass doesnt seem to have the same affliction so I quit making mine and just paid the difference for 222s.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I wonder why they don't make it past the 4-6 firings? Possiblly the thickness of the brass overall, not being drawn thinner by the factory process? FL sizing setting the shoulder back too often? Does neck sizing lengthen the case life?

Don't know why I am concerned though. Like I said these will probablly be used solely for hunting, and if lost- oh, well. Other than slight differences in load development between the cases and bullets vs. boolits, case life may be a moot point, I think.

BCall makes a good point on the inside/outside issue. Outside it is.

[FN in MT]

Once I had fireformed cases I NECK sized only. So despite noot overworkign the necks...I still had splits.

FWIW...The most long lived cases I had...5 firings, without issues.....were some old NORMA222 Rem brass that I sized down. Moot point as the NORMA brass is about three times as expensive as simply buying Rem cases.

FN in MT

[Charlie Sometimes]

Once I had fireformed cases I NECK sized only. So despite noot overworkign the necks...I still had splits.

FWIW...The most long lived cases I had...5 firings, without issues.....were some old NORMA222 Rem brass that I sized down. Moot point as the NORMA brass is about three times as expensive as simply buying Rem cases.

FN in MT

Norma brass IS expensive- but in all my experience, it is very good brass. It looks to be made of a slightly different alloy, as it tarnishes differently. Lapua is similar, too. Military surplus is my intended supply in this project- cheap and easy to find or replace. The extra trouble is not a factor, IMHO.