Bevel Base and Patching

[303Guy]

The question of bevel bases, boat tails and in my case a chamfered base arises quite often. I'm beginning to think it's not the best idea. The reason being that the patch tail doesn't come off quickly enough if the boolit base is not sharp and square.



The captured boolet was caught up close. The patch tail was picked up a few meters from the muzzle. The patched boolit shows the chamfered base.

This is what a base should look like in my opinion.

[303Guy]

So, making the observation that if the patch is going to slip during seating, it will slip whatever tail it's got and seeing is I have quite a few chamfered castings, I did a simple experiment. I patched without a tail!



I pushed the PPCBoo through the sizer (which sized the base area to fit the case neck) without the patch slipping so I seated it in a loaded case and fired it. Well, it seemed to work!

See the patch tail on the L/H remnants.

Impact was a little too vigorous to show the effects on the base. I'll try it again with a lighter charge.

[michael30.06]

I didn't think it would have that much effect. Well done mate. Food for thought as they say.

[Nobade]

Perhaps this is why I can't seem to get my Lee bevel base 38-55 boolits to shoot very well. On the other hand, gascheck base boolits seem to work very well. Hmmm.

[rhbrink]

Lots of new things to think about here, 303Guy do you keep the base of the boolit in the case neck? I would think that if you didn't the powder would just blow the paper away from the base of the boolit maybe not? I always struggle with making a nice neat wrap at the base of my gas check boolits without a gas check. This might solve some problems but my boolits go past the base of the neck and don't have any plain base 30 cal molds just have to wait and see what happens with this thread.

[docone31]

Then, and on the other hand, I use only bevel base molds.
I leave more tail, snip off half, then size the patched casting. The tail remainder compresses up to the base making a cushion.
I use full tilt loads and get pretty good accuracy at 200yds. Real good actually.

[303Guy]

rhbrink, I keep the boolit base at the neck base. To achieve that, I have to tailor the nose to fit the throat and bore start. That doesn't seem to be a problem with soft alloy but my new alloy is somewhat harder and might not upset at the nose enough to cut the patch. So far, with the pig gun at reduced loads to capture the boolit, the patch gets impressed into the nose without cutting. I'd think that at normal loads that wouldn't be a problem.

docone31, do you have pics of your patched and unpatched boolits? Your alloy is also quite hard right? My alloy may be at an inbetween that does not open up at the base enough to cut the patch cleanly and is soft enough for the paper to compress it. Maybe I simply need more pressure!

[docone31]

No, I don't. Never mastered the picture part of the computer.
I can take some and send them to you to post though.
I can do it next week.
Send me a pm with your e-mail. I have some patched up and sized, plus some sized prior to patching, plus some just cast.
Should get a spread.

[303Guy]

PM sent.

I found it be quite a mission to learn how to post pics!

[docone31]

Sent it back.
Sent photos of my shop, and my wife and myself.

[Zeek]

PM sent.

I found it be quite a mission to learn how to post pics!

Likewise, I'm sewer. However, then I tried following the instructions and it worked perfectly the first time. Goat figure! Most instructions just flat don't work, except for the one who wrote them, but this site's post-a-photo instructions were short, clear, and simple. Here's a "BRAVO!!" to the management,
Zeek

[CJR]

Docone31,

You mentioned getting good groups. What MOA do you get consistently with your loads?

Best regards,

CJR

[docone31]

Good groups for me,
If I fire 10 jacketed loads. Factory or otherwise, then fire 10 paper patched, if the paper patched groups better overall than the factory, I am pleased.
When I go to the range, there is always scrap behind the targets. Bowling pins, pieces of 2 X 4, just general stuff that is range debris. When I can walk a bowling pin up the berm, hitting only the neck, that is a good group.
This is at 100yds.

[CJR]

Docone31,

"Minute of bowling pin neck" works for me!

Best regards,

CJR

[docone31]

Yeah, they fire better than I can shoot. Good enough for me.
On paper, and I have not done paper for a while. Too lazy to walk to the targets in the heat.
On observation, no tumbling, good penetration. On my scoped rifles, they almost touch at 100yds.
With jacketeds, same results, slightly wider patterns.
When I first started this whole shebang, I was lucky if I got 20 Min of Berm at 100yds. I mean, the target was the safest spot to be! I was lucky to hit the berm in front of me.
As my load progressed, it got smaller and smaller. I did a bedding job, the bore got shineyer, and I got better at wrapping. The paper thickness, and length stayed the same though.
The load was the same also.

[303Guy]

The load was the same also.

So you did no actual load development? That's interesting! Did you ever find any traces of leading in the early days?

[CJR]

Docone31,

What do you estimate your load velocity to be?

Best regards,

CJR

[docone31]

I figuire, a little better than 2500fps.
With the leading,
When I first started, I got miserable patterns, no leading per se, but no bore cleaning also.
As I got to the proper diameter, the patterns got smaller, the bore got shiney, and when I hit the dia., I just wrapped and fired.
My .30s went .309. I got the numbers from an old Herters box of bullets. They were sized .309. I had always gone with .308. With my Enfield, I went with .314 as that was the largest dia sizer Lee made in that range.
I hit them both.
I have always used the start load data, otherwise, why bother to do this in the first place? Just get factory swaged bullets.

[303Guy]

Your results are actually rather pleasing because it shows a basic 'formula' for successful paper patching for the Lee Enfield and also for basic loading anything for for the L E. I have never found changing loads to have an influence on a Lee Enfield excepting for going too high when the gun switches to shotgun patterns as the action flexing becomes excessive or something. POI shifts but not group size or so it seems.

[CJR]

I've been sending a lot of PPCBs downrange recently and learning from my mistakes. My first effort was with a 308, Lyman 311291 CB as cast WW WQ(weighed in batches of 1 grain),wrapped w/ onionskin (0.0015"), sprayed w/DuPont Multi-Use Teflon(teflon,moly, wax, calcium stearate), sized to 0.309". Groups at 100 yds were decent and velocity was about 2500-2600 fps. Then I started increasing the powder charge and used JPW. Groups went down the tubes. I looked at the rifling near the muzzle, from the side, and the lands and grooves were coated with lead. I had some DuPont sprayed patch loads and shot them and looked at the muzzle rifling again. The tops of the lands cleaned up from the PPCB sprayed with the DuPont Teflon spray..

Lessons learned?
1. My patches were stripping in the bore. I need to try heavier/tougher PP to prevent muzzle rifling leading before increasing load charges..
2. DuPont spray appears better than JPW at hi-vels.
3. Decided to get more sizing dies; size CB to 0.0015" over bore diameter, patch CB with heavier/tougher papers(Vellum, etc,) & different rag contents , spray with DuPont Teflon, size to 0.309" & load one standard charge.
4. Once I've got the patch to prevent barrel leading, I'll increase powder charges to find the most accurate hi-vel load.
5. Muzzle rifling leading has to be checked for with each increased powder charge.

I'm also now working with a .375 H&H PPCB (~240gr) and applying the same approach as the 308 to reach max. vels w/accuracy. I also have a new LBT LFN 150gr. CB to try against the 311291. I'm also trying different O.A.L.s to minimze the PPCB jump to the rifling while allowing round removal without debulleting.

Best regards,

CJR