A Fresh Newbie to Reloading

[Benjmen]

Hello All,

I am just getting back to shooting after a very long layoff, the wife had a hard time with firearms and a baby. Well that baby is now in her own apartment and a Grad student so I am getting ready to start all over again.

Things have changed so much with product and equipment I thought it would be best for me to just forget what little I knew about reloading back then and get in the mind set that I just don't know a damned thing:p.

I am looking forward to searching out all the knowledge I can gather before I start dropping any money on the wrong stuff, so Thanks in advance for the wealth of info on this site. With the cost of ammo today I will shoot a lot more if I make my own.

I used to hunt but even stopped that long before marriage because of the goof balls running around and got shot at once, that is all it took to hang up the shot guns. Now I have this very bad addiction to Steelhead fishing and fly tying.

Anyway I pulled a very old M1911A1 out the safe and put it in the hands of a collector to finance getting back to shooting. I have also pulled out Grandma's old Model 52 with a lyman Targetspot scope, got it dailed in pretty nice but don't think I want to shoot it to often as I have learned it also is a collector's piece. Any advice as to wether I should shoot it or pack it away? I am still doing rearch on the riffle.

Rick,

[kodiak1]

Rick really alot of the reloading stuff is still the same basic stuff.
Press, scale, dies, measure of some sort, shell holder the most important is get a couple three new books as that is where the changes are.
There are so many new powders and different names it will make your head spin.

Throw a couple heaping cups of safety and you can add trimmers and what not as you get going more and before you know it you will be an addict to reloading again.

The Reloaders Annonumis should hold meets some where close to you!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good Luck Ken.

[CrantNato]

I think reloading is just as much a part of concealed carry as training or buying a holster. While it does cost a bit to get started, it is a great way to save money in the long run.

I would even volunteer to help moderate the reloading forum if you guys need any help.

[Joneser]

I am new here also. I learned more in 1 day than I did in the previous month. Lots of knowledge here.

[badblanch]

I am new to reloading, did a lot of reading before purchasing anything, spoke to several gunsmith's etc. Just shot my first batch of reloads, 300 WSM, 180 Nosler, RL19 powder in one of my R93 Blasers - amazed at accuracy. Problem is with second reloads - 222 in a rem 600, all cases the same, all powder exactly the same - same measurements to ogive, headspace - triple checked everything - 15 with 50 gr Nosler ballistic tip, 15 with 50 grain Barnes. One hundred yard range - I shot three shots - less than one inch groups with Nosler, then couldn't hit the adjoining 11 x 17 target with Barnes. Then three shots with Nosler - same results, then again Barnes, same results. Is this possible?? All groups were the same with the Noslers - never hit the paper with the Barnes.

[versifier]

Welcome to GunLoads.

Sure it's possible - and fairly common. The bullets you used have different profiles, have different construction, and are made from different alloys. What would have been surprising would be if they didn't behave that way. Point of Impact (POI) can vary considerably any time you make any changes in your load recipe. But there may be a more serious problem involved here.
What powder did you use?
What reloading manuals do you have?
Was the the charge you used listed as a starting load?
What was your data source(s)?
Most Barnes bullets have loading data specially worked up for them due to the way they are made.

[badblanch]

I used Nosler reloading manual, 20.5 grains H322, 2.781 to ogive, remington brass all weighing the same, all same length. I just never realized that there could be such of a different result using all but one of the same component, even though the weights were the same, I even weighed each of the bullets. Thanks for your input

[versifier]

The load may actually be grouping, but you likely need a larger backer to see just where it's landing. It may need a heavier charge to find its node of accuracy, there may be a stabilization issue due to the longer bearing surface of the Barnes, or the rifle may just not like the bullet. I really wanted to make sure you weren't skipping to the hot end of the charge table instead of working up the load, but that is a mild charge, even below Lee's Start. The powder isn't listed for the .222 with 50gr bullets in either Sierra or Lyman, so that may be part of the problem, too. You don't usually see a huge POI shift when keeping to the same bullet weight, but it is not unknown to see 12" or more difference at 100yds. Some rifles are a lot pickier than others as to bullet choice, and some will put everything in the same general area, but there is no predicting it. You just have to try them and find out. I would want to know where they are landing and if they are actually grouping. I would also make a point of finding the Barnes data specific to the bullet and see how different the charge weight range is, assuming they consider the powder suitable.

[badblanch]

thank you for your advice - I went with the most accurate load and powder listed for 50 gr Noslers from their latest load book.All the powders and all the load weights for that particular bullet were not listed as accurate as H322, and yes it was the lower end of the weight, but Nosler said that one was the most accurate. Before I got started, my gunsmith had checked out the 600, cleaned and serviced it and shot several brands of factory ammo through it - he said it liked remington best - shot .870 with 50 gr rem ammo. He gave me recipe of 23 gr IMR 4895 for 55 grain nosler and sierra, 24 imr4895 for 55 gr hornady V-max, and 24.5 IMR 4895 for 50 gr hornady Vmax. I wanted to try a little lower load in the beginning, so thats why the H322, looks like I gotta find a Barnes book and try some of their stuff. I was really impressed with the accuracy of the ones that hit the paper with Nosler. Guess now I am gonna get hooked into trying for the best load for all my rifles. My R93 Blaser in 308 is next. Thanks again

[versifier]

It sounds like you were not given the one most important bit of info: When you are given a "recipe" or a "pet load" to try, always start at a minimum load and work up to it while watching for pressure signs. An individual rifle may reach its own personal MAX well below listed levels in a loading manual, and I have more than one like that in my gun safe. One blows primers with any factory ammo, but shoots subMOA with my handloads with no flattening of primers at all. It happens just often enough to drive the point home.

Data generated in any other firearm (and that includes every bit of data you can find in any current loading manual) does not tell you what will happen in yours, except in a general way. Even if the rifle in question is brand new, the fired brass may be showing clear visual pressure signs well below listed MAX. Of course, the pendulum swings both ways and you will also encounter rifles that show no pressure signs at all even when the loads go over the red line, which can lead to a very dangerous situation for a novice loader who hasn't been taught how to mic case heads. If the signs are there, pay attention, if they are not don't exceed MAX and watch what the chronograph tells you (if your load at book MAX is moving way too fast, back off to the listed velocity levels). No two rifles will shoot the same velocities with identical loads, so be aware when you work with very high pressure cartridges like your WSM. You are obviously not the sort of loader who has to have max everything, but a clearer understanding of what happens before the bullet leaves the barrel never hurts. Sooner or later you will run into flattened, cratered, or pierced primers in the course of working up loads. I use a lot of range brass and it amazes me how many fired factory loads show obvious pressure signs after firing in regular production rifles.

Loads listed in any manual as most accurate were just that - in their test firearm (often a universal receiver with interchangeable barrels). It doesn't mean the load will be the most accurate in your rifle, though often it is a reasonably accurate recipe. But, with some testing you can usually find a much better one. Your .222 ought to be able to shoot a 10shot group at 200yds that you can cover with a nickel with its favorite bullet and the right powder, provided you do your part. Often the charge level for optimum accuracy is not a hot load, either, but again it depends on the individual rifle.

[badblanch]

thanks again for your advice, I understand that you always start at the low end and work your way up. That is why I have tried to get in the lowest recommended loads first - the gunsmith loads seem at the high end of the spectrum, something I was unwilling to try until I get a lot more experience under my belt. I have no real desire to push the envelope, just safe accurate rounds that hit where I aim. Besides no animal can tell the difference in a few hundred feet per second, like you said, as long as I do my job. I am looking forward to going back to the range and trying new brass, with similar loads to see if I can get even better results. I read and researched for a long time before I was ready to try reloading and before I shot any I had a veteran reloader check my work. I feel better now that I have seen some promising results, now the challenge is to repeat the process for even better results in the future. I am curious about case stretching on the R93 300 wsm. Gunsmith said set at 3.736, after firing they were all 3.746, is that common for the 300WSM?

[versifier]

It is not at all unusual, especially with a high pressure round to stretch .010, but some rifles are worse than others. Even in milder cartridges some are more prone to it than others. My .308 M1A cases need FL sizing every loading and have to be trimmed every second or third loading while my Rem 788 cases get neck sized and only need to have their shoulders set back by FL sizing right around every fifth loading. They often do not need to be trimmed until ten firings. Cases don't stretch much after they are fireformed to the chamber and that is one reason why neck sizing when possible gives you much better case life. (I recommend a Lee collet die for the .300, but have had better results with conventional NS dies in .222 & .223. YMMV)

I am confused about your posted numbers, though. Max case length for the .300WSM is only 2.100", trim-to is 2.090", and SAAMI's Max COAL for the loaded round is 2.860". Either there is a typo in your post (3.736/3.746) or we are talking about two different cartridges.

[badblanch]

Sorry, that is without zeroing the caliper back after attaching the headspace tool, it should be one inch less 2.736 and 2.746. I have RCBS for the most of my calibers and lee for the 222. I woinder how long the case life will be for the 300 wsm if I have to push the shoulder back after every firing. Also what about the Innovative technologies specialized die to be used with all the belted magnums. is it worth the price?

[versifier]

The WSM family of cases are not belted and don't have the head separation issues like they do, so it's nothing to be concerned about. I'm not sure how well the tool works, (I think it's like an RCBS X die) but case life can vary a lot from rifle to rifle. The belts were designed to to make extraction a sure thing on dangerous game rifles and when hunting something that will hunt you, even handloaders always use brand new brass for field ammo. Most of the big ones don't get shot very often. If the action permits it (i.e. there are no feeding or extraction issues) belted cases can have pretty good longevity. If not, in certain rifles they sometimes don't last five firings before the telltale rings of incipient head separation start to appear just above their belts.

With your WSM, again depending on the rifle, if you can't neck size you get five trimmings then you toss the cases when they need a sixth. They may not need trimming after every firing and milder loads will lessen the likelihood. Neck sizing will give you more firings between trimmings - how many depends on how hot the loads are and the rifle itself. A collet die will work the necks much less than a conventional NS die which works like a FL die: reduce diameter way down then return to correct diameter with an expander ball without touching the body of the case at all. The collet just squeezes the neck back by using a mandrel of the correct interior diameter. Bushing NS dies have no expander balls and size the outside of the neck but are often specific to one lot of brass - you either have to have several bushings or turn the necks of all your cases to equal thickness - fine for a target rifle, but not so practical for most handloaders.

Annealing is another technique to add to your repertoire to increase case life, too, as it keeps the necks from getting brittle from work hardening. Belted cases often don't last long enough to need it, but thinking positive, yours may. Do a search over on Cast Boolits if you want to learn more about it. You can also search here: http://www.reloadbench.com It is another very friendly forum, much larger than ours, but with a good crew of very knowledgable reloaders.

If the loading gods are smiling on you, you might get fifteen or even more firings from a batch of cases. Time will tell.

[badblanch]

I am jumping all over the place because I finally got a wise and reliable advisor - the reason I asked about the Innovative Technologies die for belted magnums - is that I read that usually belted magnums have a shorter case life because of the belt not being pushed back after firing - I have 7mm win mag, 270 and 300 weatherby mags, 300, 338 win mags and 375 H&H Mag, so I am concerned about reloading belted cartridges.

[versifier]

The belt doesn't get pushed anywhere - it prevents the cartridge from moving forward and back in the chamber, and that is the root of the problem. The case's shoulder pushes forward. Rimmed and belted cases stretch more than rimless ones, and if you have to FL size them every loading, they stretch each time, thinning at the case web as the brass moves forward. With neck sizing, the brass is already fireformed to the chamber and doesn't need to expand each time (it does a little bit, so that every few firings you need to set the shoulder back, but no where near as much). Rimless cases are free to move back and forth in the chamber a small amount during the firing/obturation cycle, so they do not stretch as much as cases that cannot move.
Like I said, if you can get away with neck sizing, you will get much better cases life. Usually in a bolt action or single shot you can do it without feeding issues, but if you have a BAR or a BLR, you are probably going to have some problems with feeding and will need to FL size.