Kelly J
08-17-2011, 08:22 AM
Western Missouri Shooters Alliance
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Dale Roberts/Target Masters Tried to Invalidate YOUR Carry Permit.
Tim Oliver
Since passage of the concealed-carry law in 2003, the sheriffs of all 114 counties of Missouri have accepted training certificates from ccw applicants who fired no more than 70 rounds total through two guns during their firearms safety training course, 50 of which were fired during a live fire practice exercise plus 20 in a live fire qualification test. Although more rounds could be fired, 70 rounds represented the minimum rounds required in the standards set forth in the plain and simple language of RSMO 571.111 (2) (9) (10):
(2) A physical demonstration performed by the applicant that demonstrated his or her ability to safely load and unload a revolver and a semiautomatic pistol and demonstrated his or her marksmanship with both;
(9) A live firing exercise of sufficient duration for each applicant to fire a handgun, from a standing position or its equivalent, a minimum of fifty rounds at a distance of seven yards from a B-27 silhouette target or an equivalent target;
(10) A live fire test administered to the applicant while the instructor was present of twenty rounds from a standing position or its equivalent at a distance from a B-27 silhouette target, or an equivalent target, of seven yards.
The standards do not specify the number of rounds to be fired through each gun. This was intentional. The standards for the course of fire for a ccw endorsement was written by State Representative Larry Crawford, with a large amount of input from Greg Jeffery and me, and we knew that the language had to be precise in what was required of the student so that the standards could not be changed at the whim of an anti-gun sheriff, yet would be flexible enough that an 86-yr-old grandmother would be able to pass.
Dale Roberts of Target Masters, who failed to understand the simple language of the statute cited above, asked St Rep Chris Kelly to obtain an AG’s Opinion on the matter. In that letter, Roberts cites Learn To Carry, LLC as the sole example of instructors who are doing it wrong, and copied a webpage on “What to Bring” from Learn To Carry’s website. See Robert’s letter to Rep Kelly:
http://learntocarry.com/docs/571questio ... oberts.pdf
Also, as reported in a thread by Thunderlounge in a MissouriCarry.com forum thread:
http://www.missouricarry.com/forums/sho ... hp?t=61192
Roberts/TM is telling prospective students that Learn To Carry’s courses fail to meet the statutory requirements (because we shoot 50 + 20). From a number of other first-hand sources, we know Roberts’ argument is, if your training course was not 140 rounds with both a pistol and revolver qualification of 20 rounds each, your permit is invalid and wrongfully issued, with your instructor having falsified the Sheriff’s form and guilty of a Class C Misdemeanor. While this BS is aimed at Learn To Carry, the collateral damage, if true, would have been statewide and likely involving approximately 99% of Missouri ccw permits that, according to Roberts, would be invalid.
As luck would have it, the AG’s Opinion, based on the statutes after passage of HB294, serves to reveal Mr. Roberts’/Target Masters’ flawed thinking:
http://learntocarry.com/docs/571questio ... 8-MOAG.pdf
With this same understanding of the new language, the Missouri Sheriffs Association has issued new forms to address the new standards, and sheriffs have stated they will not accept training courses or old forms based on the old standards once the new law goes into effect on 8/28/11. If, as Mr. Roberts contends, the new language only “clarified” the standards, then there would be no difference in the standards after 8/28/11, and thus, no need for sheriffs and instructors to update their training certificates -- and more importantly, there would be no basis for sheriffs to reject past training certificates. These things have changed precisely because the standards have changed.
The ultimate irony is that Wisconsin, the latest state to allow concealed carry, does not have any live fire requirement. Meanwhile, here in Missouri, the people who asked for SS#2 to become part of HB294 (so they could rent more guns, sell more ammo and make more $$) did far more to damage our 2A Rights than the anti-gunners have done in 20 years. You must contact your elected officials today and during the next legislative session with the clear message to repeal all the bad changes made in SS#2 of HB294.
When considering where to spend your hard earned firearms dollars, choose wisely.
Home • Links • LTC/Course • Events • Archives • Politics
Dale Roberts/Target Masters Tried to Invalidate YOUR Carry Permit.
Tim Oliver
Since passage of the concealed-carry law in 2003, the sheriffs of all 114 counties of Missouri have accepted training certificates from ccw applicants who fired no more than 70 rounds total through two guns during their firearms safety training course, 50 of which were fired during a live fire practice exercise plus 20 in a live fire qualification test. Although more rounds could be fired, 70 rounds represented the minimum rounds required in the standards set forth in the plain and simple language of RSMO 571.111 (2) (9) (10):
(2) A physical demonstration performed by the applicant that demonstrated his or her ability to safely load and unload a revolver and a semiautomatic pistol and demonstrated his or her marksmanship with both;
(9) A live firing exercise of sufficient duration for each applicant to fire a handgun, from a standing position or its equivalent, a minimum of fifty rounds at a distance of seven yards from a B-27 silhouette target or an equivalent target;
(10) A live fire test administered to the applicant while the instructor was present of twenty rounds from a standing position or its equivalent at a distance from a B-27 silhouette target, or an equivalent target, of seven yards.
The standards do not specify the number of rounds to be fired through each gun. This was intentional. The standards for the course of fire for a ccw endorsement was written by State Representative Larry Crawford, with a large amount of input from Greg Jeffery and me, and we knew that the language had to be precise in what was required of the student so that the standards could not be changed at the whim of an anti-gun sheriff, yet would be flexible enough that an 86-yr-old grandmother would be able to pass.
Dale Roberts of Target Masters, who failed to understand the simple language of the statute cited above, asked St Rep Chris Kelly to obtain an AG’s Opinion on the matter. In that letter, Roberts cites Learn To Carry, LLC as the sole example of instructors who are doing it wrong, and copied a webpage on “What to Bring” from Learn To Carry’s website. See Robert’s letter to Rep Kelly:
http://learntocarry.com/docs/571questio ... oberts.pdf
Also, as reported in a thread by Thunderlounge in a MissouriCarry.com forum thread:
http://www.missouricarry.com/forums/sho ... hp?t=61192
Roberts/TM is telling prospective students that Learn To Carry’s courses fail to meet the statutory requirements (because we shoot 50 + 20). From a number of other first-hand sources, we know Roberts’ argument is, if your training course was not 140 rounds with both a pistol and revolver qualification of 20 rounds each, your permit is invalid and wrongfully issued, with your instructor having falsified the Sheriff’s form and guilty of a Class C Misdemeanor. While this BS is aimed at Learn To Carry, the collateral damage, if true, would have been statewide and likely involving approximately 99% of Missouri ccw permits that, according to Roberts, would be invalid.
As luck would have it, the AG’s Opinion, based on the statutes after passage of HB294, serves to reveal Mr. Roberts’/Target Masters’ flawed thinking:
http://learntocarry.com/docs/571questio ... 8-MOAG.pdf
With this same understanding of the new language, the Missouri Sheriffs Association has issued new forms to address the new standards, and sheriffs have stated they will not accept training courses or old forms based on the old standards once the new law goes into effect on 8/28/11. If, as Mr. Roberts contends, the new language only “clarified” the standards, then there would be no difference in the standards after 8/28/11, and thus, no need for sheriffs and instructors to update their training certificates -- and more importantly, there would be no basis for sheriffs to reject past training certificates. These things have changed precisely because the standards have changed.
The ultimate irony is that Wisconsin, the latest state to allow concealed carry, does not have any live fire requirement. Meanwhile, here in Missouri, the people who asked for SS#2 to become part of HB294 (so they could rent more guns, sell more ammo and make more $$) did far more to damage our 2A Rights than the anti-gunners have done in 20 years. You must contact your elected officials today and during the next legislative session with the clear message to repeal all the bad changes made in SS#2 of HB294.
When considering where to spend your hard earned firearms dollars, choose wisely.