weatherby vanguard

My brother and I bought our father a 243 weatherby vanguard for Christmas. They were on sale and seamed like a pretty good deal at just over $400. Both of us thought it is a weatherby it has to be a quality rifle. That thought was so strong that I myself could not resist the same gun in a 22-250. I left the store thinking I had a great buy. Then I got home and got a chance to pull the trigger. Man how mad I was to find out that this really nice looking and feeling gun has a terrible trigger. We checked the one we bought for my father and it was the same deal. The trigger is way to creepy to be an accurate gun. I have practiced and practiced with mine and can get no better than an 1"1/2 group at 100yards, and I thought this would be a long range tack driver. Now I know that you can buy a replacement trigger from timney and they are supposed to be very good, but if you are looking to buy an affordable rifle and are considering a weatherby vanguard realize you too may end out surfing the net for the best deal on a timney trigger.

The sad fact is that most new firearms today come with piss poor triggers. Now, whether this is due to legal constraints or to cutting corners in the manufacturing I do not know. Usually careful stoning of the engagement surfaces to remove rough spots and burrs is enough to make a dramatic improvement, but sometimes the problem is simply that some grit that needs to be wiped or blown out. If you have a gunsmith in your area, let him take a look at one of them and listen to what he has to say. Failing that, Timney, Cajar, and others make excellent aftermarket triggers, though not all necessarily "drop-in". Sometimes minor fitting is needed for anything other than Mauser 98's, Rem 700's, & Win 70's. A good snap cap and plenty of dry firing can sometimes improve a rough or creepy trigger, too, but that usually works better with a revolver than with a bolt rifle.
You don't say if you are handloading or using factory ammo in your .22-250, but either way, that is terrible performance for a round that is easily capable of less than 1/2" groups in a decent rifle. I hope it's only a trigger issue and you get it shooting the way it ought to. If I were buying new, I would be very tempted by an "ugly" Savage that shoots "beautiful" groups. Pretty guns look nice on the wall, but I'll take an ugly tack driver any day. BTW, you might want to check out Gun Tests in the future before buying any new firearm and see what they have to say. Sometimes it's quite the eye opener.

Most of the time I am very good about doing my research and shopping around before I purchase a fire arm. This time I just got caught up and impulse purchased. I take solice in the fact that I also purchased a Browning A bolt Varment Stalker in .204 that is a tack driver. I easily 1/2 groups at 100 yards, love to back up to 300 yards and pick off pop cans.

I own a savage in 243. It is a great rifle. Plain jane but shoots accurate and is just set up to be taken out and hunted with.

I am going to purchase another 22-250 and I am debating between the Savage Varmint 12BVSS 22-250, or the Tikka T3 Varmint Stainless 22-250. Both are priced about the same around $630.00. My brother has a Tikka T3 243 and it is a very nice rifle with a smooth action and perfect trigger.

Anyone have any other suggestions that I should consider, or opinions on the ones I have mentioned.

I know what you mean about them following you home sometimes. With me it's usually something odd and used and I can't get parts for it, etc. My brother has it worse with shotguns, but he buys and sells a lot of them so usually comes out ahead. The last new one that followed me home was a Ruger MkII, and I'm not going to part with that for love nor money.
The Savage you are considering was rated a GT Best Buy, and the two I have seen at the range really impressed me. The heavy barrels didn't heat as fast as my old Remington 788, and they both were quite accurate (less than 1" 5shots @ 100yds) with the factory ammo the owners were using. I got a few boxes of brass out of it, too, so was more than happy to share recipes, though neither of them handloads yet. You should get another 200yds range to roll soda cans over your .204.
I have never shot a Tikka, nor had the chance to examine one up close, so I have no business commenting except to say that it looks like a very well designed action. They get decent writeups, too, as I remember, but the back issues are at my dad's farm and not handy or I would look them up for you.
Let us know how you make out with the trigger situation in your Weatherbys.

Ableshooter,

Are you going to dump that Weatherby when you buy the Savage/Tikka?

Probably the first thing I'd do, before buying a new rifle, is take the Weatherby to a gunsmith you trust and see if he can do something with that trigger, short of replacement.

I've got a really good guy near here that has helped me out a LOT with some crummy triggers. The trigger alone doesn't necessarily turn a sow's ear into a silk purse, but it sure dont hurt anything. You might be pleasantly surprised.:)

I brought a Weatherby Vanguard /Howa some time ago as a working rifle & the firstthing I had to do was get the trigger worked over but since then I've been quite pleased with it .Ok it ain't no Ruger but for the price it's been pretty good value


Dave

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Originally Posted by C1PNR

Ableshooter,

Are you going to dump that Weatherby when you buy the Savage/Tikka?

Probably the first thing I'd do, before buying a new rifle, is take the Weatherby to a gunsmith you trust and see if he can do something with that trigger, short of replacement.

I've got a really good guy near here that has helped me out a LOT with some crummy triggers. The trigger alone doesn't necessarily turn a sow's ear into a silk purse, but it sure dont hurt anything. You might be pleasantly surprised.:)

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You know I have thought about selling or trading my weatherby when I buy a new 22-250 and I am torn. I am the type of guy who is always looking to add to my collection and once I have bought a gun I have a hard time parting with it. Even if it will only set in my gun safe and rarely get used. The Weatherby is a really pretty rifle. It has a snow camo stock and stainless barrel and scope. It looks really nice. I will probably end out taking it to a cun smith to see what they can do with it and if nothing can be helped I will buy a replacement trigger.

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Originally Posted by Ableshooter

You know I have thought about selling or trading my weatherby when I buy a new 22-250 and I am torn. I am the type of guy who is always looking to add to my collection and once I have bought a gun I have a hard time parting with it. Even if it will only set in my gun safe and rarely get used. The Weatherby is a really pretty rifle. It has a snow camo stock and stainless barrel and scope. It looks really nice. I will probably end out taking it to a cun smith to see what they can do with it and if nothing can be helped I will buy a replacement trigger.

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I'm with you on the parting with one that just isn't working. I still have a Winchester M 70 Ftw in 6.5 x 55 Swede that just would not shoot for a hill of beans. I've put at least half the original cost into it in gunsmith bills that I'll NEVER get back if I sell it. But it sure shoots now! It's the only modern action I have in that caliber and I wanted the thing to shoot.

I recently picked up an older Ruger in 7 x 57 Mauser that I haven't fired yet. I'm really worried that it's one of those they put out with the "lowest bidder" barrel from those "bad old days." If push comes to shove I'll probably put a new barrel on it.

I have a Ruger in 257 Roberts "Made in the 200th year of American Liberty" (1976) that I've had since about 1978. Another "problem" rifle that is Still not shooting like it should. It was recommended to me to rebarrel it, but half the value is that roll engraving on the factory barrel.

Enough rambling! Time to go see some friends at the local Tavern. Plan a fishing trip, and maybe even have a cold libation.:p

Just wanted to let you guys know. I put a Timney replacement trigger in my weatherby and what a difference it made. I now love this gun. The timney trigger is easily adjustable, and adds a three position safety instead of two, and has a really crisp feel. It is like having a brand new rifle all over again.

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Originally Posted by Ableshooter

Just wanted to let you guys know. I put a Timney replacement trigger in my weatherby and what a difference it made. I now love this gun. The timney trigger is easily adjustable, and adds a three position safety instead of two, and has a really crisp feel. It is like having a brand new rifle all over again.

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That's great ! it's half the battle won having a rifle you like not just one that does the job !

Dave

Excellent news! Now the big question: Did the groups improve? Are you shooting (shudder) factory or handloads?

You know I started out shooting factory loads. I have now reloaded those brass and worked up what I think is a pretty good load. Between that and the trigger job my groups have improved to an inch at 100 yards. I am going to continue to work on the load that I am using hoping to further improve accuracy. I also need to get used to the new trigger. It is crisp and light just the way I like it but just like anything new it will take a little getting used to.

What powders/bullets have you tried so far, and what kind of dies are you using? With a little fooling around, you might be able to get them to half of that size or even better. My pet loads for this cartridge are both posted in the Reloading section. They will shoot less than 1/2" 10shots@100yds out of my old Remington on a good day and if I'm doing my part, and less than 3/4" on a bad one. YMMV

Right now I am shooting 50 grain V-Max boattails, using 35.5 grains of IMR 4060 powder, with federal 210 primers and winchester brass.

4060? Do you mean IMR4064? I have tried it in this case, but I like it much better in .308 & .30-06. I found best accuracy with slightly faster powders like IMR 3031 and RE-7, but Varget (in the same range as IMR4064) seems to be very popular with others on the nets and might be worth checking out. My rifle prefers 52-55gr bullets, too, but every rifle is different, so try a variety of weights to see if it shows any definite preferences. I started load development in the early 80's with Sierra 52gr HPBT Matchkings and IMR3031, loved them immediately, then found when I began testing hunting bullets that the Sierra 55gr HPBT and SBT GameKings were just as accurate. I also checked their 45 & 50gr bullets with the same three powders, but found it would not shoot them as accurately - couldn't get the groups below 1" - I think my throat is too long for them. I have never tried anything heavier than 55gr, but I see no need for them for the uses to which I put my rifle. Maybe I will buy a box of 60's one of these days just to see if it will shoot them, too, maybe even better. I also have checked various Speer, Hornady, and Nosler offerings in 50-55gr, but the Sierra's outshot them all by a wide margin. Again, every rifle is different, though, so your results may well be different than mine, but I'd at least try a box of 55gr GameKings.
I asked about the dies you are using because when I switched from fl sizing with RCBS regular dies to neck sizing with Lee Collet Dies, it shrank the groups from about 3/4" to 1/2". Needless to say, now only new and once-fired range brass goes through the fl die.
I use only CCI and Winchester primers because those are the only two rated safe with the Lee AutoPrime2 tool that I use, and of the two, the CCI seem to have the slight edge in accuracy with this case, but the difference isn't really noticable within 300yds, slightly at 400, and there is no change in point of impact that couldn't be explained by range conditions.

Sorry about that I meant IMR 4064. I am using RCBS Dies. They were affordable and I am new to reloading. Anyway thanks for the info I will put it to the test. I have been working really hard getting a load worked up for my 204 so I have not gotten to really working on my 22-250. The info you have given me will really help. Thanks again.

I think neck sizing is the way to go. For a little more than the cost of an RCBS neck sizer, you can get the whole .22-250 Lee Collet Die Set that has a great seater die, too. Your .204 would likely benefit from neck sizing, also, RCBS and Forster make them for it.

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Originally Posted by versifier

Excellent news! Now the big question: Did the groups improve? Are you shooting (shudder) factory or handloads?

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Did you break in the barrel properly? Where did you get the Timney, and how much was it? I have a Stainless Vanguard in .300 Win Mag.

Try to seat them to as long an OAL as you can that will still feed from the magazine. (But that's SOP for any bolt action). There is a lot of variation in the throat lengths and angles with different chamber reamers, and the less distance the bullet has to jump from case mouth to the point of engagement with the barrel's lands, the less chance of it being canted with respect to the bore, the more stable it will be in flight, and generally, the more accurate. Often with a short action (for the .308 cartridge family), you get a little more room in the rifle's magazine for the slightly shorter .22-250, which can give you a little bit more OAL to play with to your advantage.

Doesn't the Vanguard have an adjustable trigger? I got my son the 7mm-08 for Christmas and I thought I read in the manual that the trigger was adjustable. Could have been somewhere else though.........it's the almost age 50 thing you know. :happy69:

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Originally Posted by ak257

Doesn't the Vanguard have an adjustable trigger? I got my son the 7mm-08 for Christmas and I thought I read in the manual that the trigger was adjustable. Could have been somewhere else though.........it's the almost age 50 thing you know. :happy69:

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Yes, it does have an adjustable trigger. I have lightened it up as far as I can.

I have a S&W Model 1500 .30-06 that I picked up for a really reasonable price used. S&W contracted with Howa to make this rifle for them. It's identical to the Vanguard, which is also made by Howa. I was pleasantly surprised the first time I sighted it in with factory ammunition. I got 3/4" groups at 100 yards. The trigger was fine. It could still be a little crisper, but it's fine for a sporter.

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Originally Posted by ak257

Doesn't the Vanguard have an adjustable trigger? I got my son the 7mm-08 for Christmas and I thought I read in the manual that the trigger was adjustable. Could have been somewhere else though.........it's the almost age 50 thing you know. :happy69:

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The trigger on a Vanguard is adjustable but I couldn't manage to get the creep out of it. So I put a Timney replacement trigger in it. Got the trigger from lockstock.com web site for lock stock and barrel in Valentine NE. Little spendy but made my Vanguard a much better shooter. Also the Timney trigger has a three position safety which I think is an upgrade.

To Ableshooter and AK257..... I bought my Vanguard in .300 Weatherby at my local "china" mart for $299 quite a few years ago. The trigger pull was comparable to dragging a cement block across a dirt road with your trigger finger! I measured the poundage at a very real 8.5 lbs.! I tried adjusting the pull, and cleaning and stoning to very little improvement. My gunsmith said only to "live with it"! I contacted most trigger makers, all put me off. Timney, however, said they were going to come out with a trigger shortly - would I like to be put on a waiting list? Turns out I was number "1" on the list. About 8 months later I had the first trigger, it cost $80 then with shipping. I adjusted it to 2.5 lbs. With my handloads of Nosler partitions I am getting nice 5 shot 3 leaf "Irishclover leafs" at 100 yds after breaking in the barrel. To answer your question, "Why buy such a bad trigger pull "? Simple, the trigger lock policy on all store guns had started. I could handle the show model but the trigger lock stayed on the trigger so I couldn`t test the pull till I was out of the store and home. I`m stubborn enough that I would fix the pull. I believe that the problem is almost all makers make their trigger pulls "Lawyer Proof" and as cheaply as possible, what a shame.

I tried to adjust the trigger on my friends 243 Vanguard, and had no luck. Methinks the Timney is the only good solution. That makes the Vanguard a 500 dollar gun, not a 400 dollar gun. My new Stevens 200 7-08 has alot better trigger than the Vanguard, and that surprised me. Go Figger
Woody

As far as group sizing goes, have you had the action bedded and the barrel free floated? Bedding job and triggers are the first jobs in getting acurate rifles. If you are reloading trying for 1/2 in groups without bedding, you are kinda beating a dead horse in my opinion.

I fully agree on the trigger and bedding.

I bought mine (a Rem 7 mag) from a pawnshop for a really good price. It was NIB with the Butler Creek plastic stock. My eyes were open and I knew I would either replace the trigger or have it adjusted by a gunsmith. I put it in a Boyd laminated stock and bedded the action after floating the barrel. I had adjusted the factory trigger as much as possible, but it still had a lot of creep. Even so, I was getting 1 inch groups with my handloads, which I attribute to the stock and the bedding. I was getting a few fliers, which I blame primarily on the creeping trigger (Couldn't be me flinching, you know :confused:).

I have a Howa 1500 and a trigger job by the gunsmith fixed the creep and gave me a steady 3 lb. pull.

I decided to get the timney trigger for this new one and installed it last night. Nice. It came set at 3 lbs. so I adjusted it down to 2.5. Absolutely no creeping. I did have to cut a little on the stock to get the safety to go all the way forward but that was easily done.

Hopefully, the trigger and a little more tuning on the reloads will reduce those groups.

So does that mean the Savage will stay in the store? I have a model 12 BVSS-S in .308 that shoots almost any jacketed 165 -168 grain bullet into very small groups at fairly far ranges. I haven't convinced it to like cast bullets yet, but I believe that was my fault...

Not to pick on weatherby rifles in particular but here is a different view concerning any other centerfire rifle you can buy new on the market today................why should you have to do any "modification" at all to these rifles (especially the new ones)? Why aren`t the firearms manufacturing companies producing quality products to begin with? I think that "we" as buyers should demand more quality at a good price from the companies that are supposedly producing these rifles to begin with. :mad:

It makes no sense to me when I go and buy a new rifle that I would have to go out and buy additional items to make the rifle shoot 1 moa or less at 100 yards at least with premium factory ammo (e.g. a different trigger, or barrel, or free float the stock or modify the bedding). Those quality products should have already come with the rifle to begin with. And that new rifle should be accurate enough already without having to make modifications to it.

Example given here for me is my two Browning Abolt II Composite Stalker (in both 300 WSM and 280 Rem calibers bought brand new in 1996 and 2003) rifles topped with Leupold scopes (in Millett rings and bases) that are absolute tack drivers. Both of these rifles will shoot 0.5 moa when I do my part with either factory loads or my own handloads. No modification whatsoever.............factory guns with factory barrels/triggers and factory Leupold scopes.

JMHO

Works for me!!!!!!