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Just a idle thought that I thought I'd throw around . Will the WSM range of rounds take hold & stand the test of time or will they be a flash in the pan & disapear into the semi obsolite range of rounds in favor of their traditional counter parts?
Dave
I think/hope they're a passing fad for a number of reasons. They are designed to give magnum capabilities to a short, light action. While there will always be a certain segment of the shooting fraternity that likes the abuse, the recoil levels are unpleasant. The -06 recoil is more than most shooters I know consider fun, unless it's in a heavy Garand or shooting light or cast loads. You really don't want to head down to the range with a few hundred rounds and a WSM to practice, the physical abuse is too much, no fun, leave it in the gun safe and grab a milsurp or something you can shoot a lot out of and not pay for it with a sore shoulder for the next few days. And while there are certainly individual exceptions, most I have met and talked to that have bought them are very unhappy with their generally poor (3-4 MOA out of the box) accuracy.
:violin: This seems, however, to be becoming the general rule with all new rifles. Pay $1000 (or more) for a brand new rifle that will barely pass the pie plate test, then either a trigger job or a replacement trigger, bed the action, float the barrel, maybe recrown it, then finally peep sight & front sight or base, rings, & scope...... It's just not right that a new rifle should need at least $500+ extra parts and work to get it shooting the way it should have been before it left the factory, only it wasn't. :fighting68:
Howdy,
Oh, I don't know Versifier. I can't think of any new cartridge series that has developed this much interest and work for gunsmiths since Roy Weatherby started with his 'dual radiused ventury' system years ago. Simply in terms of work for gunsmiths, I hope the trend continues. I for one get supurb accuracy from my dead stock model 70 in 7WSM. The recoil is managable now that it wears a new recoil pad... the original was horrid!!! I for one hope that it is not a passing trend, and perhaps they will last for a hundred years... like the grand ole ought six.
Coach
Welcome to the site Coach ! You Gentlemen both make very valid points! I only buy actions these days & start from scratch & build a rifle round the action ,as I've found I get more bang for my Buck ( no pun intended ) It's true that the WSM's fall into the same catergory as the Weatherby Rounds did years ago & I suppose there is still a hard core group of devotees ,who swear by their Weatherby rifles & cartriges .I suppose only time will tell the future of the WSM
Dave
Don't mean to step on anyones toes but my personnel feelings on the short mags are they suck!!! A magnum is something big bold and powerful, and as we all know many of the magnums arn't but they have the name magnum it just seems like the short magnums are going backwards.
I was also under the impression that you needed a long slight or no taper case to get the most out of a cartridge but that theory has also been blowen away.
Maybe in time they will grow on me if they last. :fighting68:
Ken. :happy59:
Hell Ken don't worry 'bout treading on toes! That's why I started this post . To get diffrant opinions ,from shooters on something New in the world of shooting :fighting72: It opens a campfire discussion .
Dave
Hi again Dave, I like the old designs like the .303, 30-06, 7x57, 8x57 etc. The wsm line may be ok for some but I see no advantage in it and its possible they will fade away and the oldies will still be here.More and more people here are "discovering " the .303 and I have converted a couple over to my favorite deer cartridge the 7x57 Mauser. Cheers from Canada, John:fighting68:
G'day John . I always find it interesting that Rounds like the ought six ,7&8mm Mausers & of course the .303 re invent them selves! The next gerneration of shooters discover them & there is a rebirth of intrest in them ! This to me is a good thing as it encourages shooters to go back to basics & then progress on to bigger things as it were
Dave
The other big plus is that when they begin to load for them and buy the milsurps chambered for them, it encourages a greater interest in history. At least that of the first half of the 20th century, and that's a start. "I should have listened better in high school history" has lots of new shooters visiting libraries or more commonly now surfing the net to learn what they can. Those who remain ignorant of history doom themselves to repeat it. If nothing else, it helps one learn when to duck! I'm all for the old standbys.
I'm not really interested in most of the new WSM, RUM, etc., cartridges. About the only one that did catch my eye was the .325 WSM. Essentially just a modified 8 Mauser.
The real problem, as I read about it anyway, is that they just do not feed worth a hoot.
No, I've got my milsurps, and a few milsurp calibers in modern rifles:cool:, to keep me company as I wander about.
Nothing wrong with more work for the 'smiths, though.:p
So we have 7 mm,300 etc; in wsm but no 30-06 wsm (guess their scared to mess with the old girl eh.):fighting68:
[QUOTE=versifier;812] You really don't want to head down to the range with a few hundred rounds and a WSM to practice, the physical abuse is too much, no fun, leave it in the gun safe And while there are certainly individual exceptions, most I have met and talked to that have bought them are very unhappy with their generally poor (3-4 MOA out of the box) accuracy.
QUOTE]
Sorry Versifier,
I for one couldn't disagree with you more.
For starters, I have not shot more than 60 rounds out of any bolt rifle at one sitting. (My AR 15 in .223 is another story !)
Also, both of my WSM's are sub-moa with 50% of the loads I try in them.
Lastly, the Win Laminated 270WSM at 81/2 pounds (with scope) is almost pleasant to shoot.
Just my 2 cents,
Al
You will find most of the time a the rifle that will shoot any load that is stuck in it doesn't have a whole bunch to do with the caliber but more to do with that particular Rifle.
Hell Flyboy yours sound like real solid guns that shoot good. Out of the 57 guns that I own as of today I have one and it is a 7 X 57 Mauser the first shot is deadly then after that you can't guess where this thing is going to hit next. I looked at the barrel lots of times to see if it was built by the LIGHTNING GUN COMPANY.
I also had a Remy 22-250 that wasn't worth bringing home.
My theory is it is the rifle and not the caliber or the bullet weight that make for a real good gun.
Ken.:p
Flyboy,
I'm glad to hear you've got a couple of good ones, and you live where the ranges can be long enough for a magnum to make sense. Here most deer, bear, and moose are taken at an average of 35yards, so they are serious overkill and they damage too much meat at short ranges. The guys that buy them around here generally are those that have to have the latest and biggest to show off. When they come to the range, I find they usually leave between one and five cases on the ground. Honestly, I think a lot of the inaccuracy I have witnessed may not be the rifles themselves, but rather the severe flinching on the shooters' part. I have fired a .300wsm (with a slip-on pad:) ) and I found it would keep 5 shots around two inches at 100yds, but it wasn't my idea of a fun rifle. That was the most accurate example that I have seen out of a dozen or so. No one who shoots them at our club also handloads, which (as you know) can, with patience, really show what a rifle is capable of, so the results I have seen have all been with factory ammo. And, none of the shooters I have met here are more than just casual shooters, so they do not get enough practice to be able to find what their rifles are capable of doing. That is what led me to the conclusion that their practical accuracy is dismal, and the potential accuracy remains largely unexplored territory.
If I lived somewhere that I might have to make a 300yard shot to fill a tag, I might be much more inclined toward the wsm's. The short, fat cases make good sense in the light of the success of the PPC and BR families of target cases, and in a year or two there might be some real progress made on the difficult feeding issues. For me though, they will remain a curiosity to read about, here I am mostly overgunned carrying my .308.
The .308 is a very fine round and I think I could find a couple of hundred 'stick' owners to agree with us.Quote:
Originally Posted by versifier
And yes, the last elk that I shot was over 300 yards away, and 4 walking miles from truck.
Deer, bear and moose at 35 yards ???
Can I come hunt at your place ?
Please ?
I own a 270, 300, 325, short mags in 3 diferent makes of rifles Browning Ruger and Savage. They all feed flawlessy compared to the belted stuff, recoil is fairly mild and they shoot under 1 1/4 MOA groups. As a side note on recoil I regularly shoot a 375 RUM a 416 Rigby and a 470 double with out to many problems, 20 at a time.:) :) :p :p
One of my hunting partners just got rid of a Tika 300WSM cause it wouldn't shoot worth beans. I tend to think it was his scope or the anticipation of the recoil but he lost all faith in it after he missed two deer at less then 100 meters over the past two years. He went back to his rem700 ought six.
The Shorts are a fad right now, but as mags go, I can out shoot any of the guys at the range with either my .308, 30-06, or 7mm rem mag. It is really in the shooter not the gun for the most part. I have also found that a lot of guys like the mags because they feel that their shot does not have to be perfect when gunning for big game. I have killed elk at 300meters with both a .308 and the 30-06. Both are lethal at that range with good shot placement.
Finally, no I do not like putting 20 rounds through any of the 30 calibers. The 7mm is by far the worst, but I don't like working during hunting seasons either, Just something we have to do.
I have a 270 WSM in a Tika T3. I really like the round. Not too much recoil, and sub MOA at 100 yards. The short action is nice. I am a big fan of the WSM and the WSSM's. New and interesting to me, maybe I am a sucker for the high performance rounds because I am trying to also get a rifle built in a 25 cal Lazeroni right now.
No disrespect to the old timers though. I have and love my 308, 30-06, 25-06, 243, 8mm. But also love my 204, 223 WSSM, 270 WSM etc. What can I say I am a fire arms junky as much or more than a hunting junky.
About a year ago I sold my Ruger M77 MKII 300 Win. Mag. to a guy at a gun show for $275. That's how much I thought of that rifle! I had it for about five years and shot it a lot and worked up countless loads in an effort to get "some" accuracy out of it. I even bought a new Nikon scope in the hope that it was the scope. It wasn't. That was the only "major" gun I had at the time. I also was of the "who needs a WSM" crowd. Well............ About two months ago a trading buddy of mine offered up a basically brand new Savage Mod. 11 in 7MM WSM to me. I traded a 10/22 and an old 3 screw Ruger Single Six with only the mag. cylinder in it for the rifle. The rifle is one of those that comes with the scope attached as a package. Well, I shot it with factory Winchester ammo and was astonished at the accuracy! With factory ammo I actually had two holes touching at 100 yards, the other two were within an inch or so. I got dies to reload for my birthday and began to work up some loads when the scope went gunny sack. So for now I can only brag so much. After I get a new scope on it I'll see what I can get out of it. I noticed something strange though. After shooting a round and extracting it from the chamber the round is cool to the touch. I never noticed this before. I know the ones that are flung from my ARs are hot even after they've been on the ground a few seconds. Did I just not notice it before or is this some strange phenomenon with the WSMs?
Well I guess Dave I have a real hard time understanding how a 170 Gr .308 size bullet kills any better when shot out of a 30-06 vs the latest .308 SuoerShort Improved Teddy Rossevelt Magnum if the velocity difference at 100 yards in only a couple hundred fps.
I maybe corected but I think the old .303 Brit has killed more Moose in N.A. than any other cartridge on the planet, so too Black Bears. I would venture to say the cartridge has accounted for more game than any other cartridge including the much vaunted (with good reason) 30-06 world wide.
If all I could carry was anyone of the following centerfire cartridges I believe I would be good to go for anything on this continent. NOw a new rifle using a Mauser action chambered n .303 Brit would be some king of gun.
.303 Brit
.308 Win
.30-06
.30-30
At hunting ranges anyone of these will do nicely - well the 30-30might be a tad light but I love the cartridge.
As far as I am concerned the WSM are just another gimmic to sell something "new" in an over saturated rifle market.
Take Care
Bob
i love the .300wsm.mine shoots better than i can.its recoil is less than other .300mags.ive heard people say that it doesnt have a big advange over the -06 but i shoot barnes xlc 150s in front of 73.5 grains of imr4831 and it clocks in at 3386fps.ive only been reloading for about a year but i dont think you can get a 30-06 any where close to those numbers safely.ive never found any .300 class magnum really fun to shoot but i do practice alot with mine,but i do wear a past recoil sheild.but anyway i love my .300wsm its never let me down in a hunt i know that from the muzzle to as far as i should be shooting at game that it will do its part as long as i do mine
I think that they are here to stay, but as time goes on a smaller portion of the shooters will stick with them. I guess they will become like some of the oldies, 30-40 Krag, 8mm, things like that, the shorts will never have a following like the 06.
I have the 270 wsm and the 300 wsm both in Savage's.
I have been reloading for 48 years and the 270 wsm is the first rifle I have ever reloaded for that I can not find a load that isn't very accurate and I am talking sub moa. The 270 wsm is with a 26" heavy barrel recoil is not any more than the 30-06. But I can't say that about the 300 wsm with a light 24" sporter barrel the recoil on it is gruesome it will get a muzzle brake on it for sure but it is also very accurate.
If the 300 wsm was not accurate the swat teams would not be using it now.
As far as the short mags go I think the ones that will fade away are the 7 wsm and all of the Remington's rum's.
As for the wssm's I think all of them will also fade away because of the feeding problem and burning out the throats very quickly as has already been noticed.
As for the old calibers passing the test of time you can't beat the 6.5x55--7x57
or the 30-06. I have one of each of them too.
For all of you that think Ruger's are not accurate I have 6 of them in
220 swift--243 win--25-06--308 WIN--270 WSM and 300 win mag.
All of them are as out of the box condition nothing has been done to them except put scopes on them.
my 243 mk11 did put 10 shots in .5 group as my 308 did the same.
http://photos.gunloads.com/images/OKIE/308win.jpg
http://photos.gunloads.com/images/OKIE/270wsm.jpg
http://photos.gunloads.com/images/OKIE/ruger243.jpg
Welcome, OKIE. It's good to hear from someone who has shot a bunch of them. I'm still not in the market for one, though.
Have any of you ever picked up a rifle and thought Wow!! the balance is there it feels great and you know you could carry it any where? I was always an 06 and 270 man and Gent's dont sell the WSM's or WSSM's short they are a Pleasure to carry and do a great job on taking game. I have a few of the classicics but I also have a 243 wssm and a 270 wsm they are great for me. The 270 Factory everything shoots dime sized groups at 100 yds. the 243 shoots quarter sized groups at 100 yds. (still working on this one) I had a feeding problem with mine (due to my tinkering mostly) replaced the Magazine box and spring and feed's just fine. I have only taken a coyote with the 270 wsm and 8 deer with the 243 wssm. the reason for that is I always grab the little 243, it is my go to Gun. it works for me ,maybe not for everyone. I like carrying a 6 1/2 rifle with a scope all day, I have plenty of others but it is the $hit for me.
You cant fix perfectQuote:
Originally Posted by Deathwind
I think Winchester had to bring in a new bullet to keep up with the other companys, and calibers. These cartridges could work very well, but I think we should stay with what works. e.g.( 30-06, 7mm RM, 30-30, 257 roberts,...........) But that is just my opinion on the subject. Like Bill Church said " You can't fix perfect"
Hi Old Bushman.
Even though they are popular,the concept of a short round with performance sounds good,however something has to give,as it is a known fact that Magnums, Belted cased Magnums & performance wildcat cartridges are hard on barrels,especially if you really stoke them up,the main problem is burning the throat/lands away away.
They took off over here with the Sambar Hunters & some Fly Shooters,,but now we are seeing quite a few second hand ones for sale,I also was leaning towards a 300 WSM & after reading an article on barrel wear,by one of our Guru's I have backpedalled,& now will go for a 3006,which is still today the most used rifle,worlwide.
The average guy who just used it for Sambar Deer,& only fired an occassional shot,would probably never wear one out,however if like me,as I would use it a fair ammount on pigs & also Sambar could.
I think they still,will be around for quite a while yet,as on paper they look good.
Also Hi OKie.
I didn't mentioned they can be tuned to shoot excellent,as people I've spoken too have said.
Next,I agree there is nothing wrong with Ruger Rifles,as there are probably thousands in use over here & in New Zealand.
I have a Varmint Model 1 in a 220 Swift,& it will shoot 1/2 easy.
This thread was started back on 05-30-2006. As of this time the WSMs and WSSMs are still going strong 3 + years now. Enuff said on that issue!
Since 2003, I have owned a Browning ABOLT II rifle in 300 WSM (topped with a Leupold VX-III scope) and have taken everything from Alaskan moose, whitetails, mule deer, pronghorns, and coyotes in several different states with it. Accuracy is excellent with less than 0.5 moa at 100 yards with premium factory ammo and I have just started to reload for it this year. Phenomenal long range rifle and caliber.
I got a bunch of dead critter mounts on my wall in my living room that will prove those folks on this forum wrong about their opinion on how unaccurate, unefficient, and unmarketable the WSM and WSSM cartridges supposedly are. I totally disagree with those folks on these issues.
The WSM/ WSSM`s were not designed to replace your milsurps or standard caliber cartridges. They were designed to give the American shooter/hunters a different choice for cartridges. I chose a 300 WSM in my Browning Abolt II rifle because I can have great accuracy in a 23 inch barreled 6.3 pound mountain rifle (not including the scope of course). Who would want anything else? :mrgreen:
Everyone has an opinion.........about calibers and rifles thats for sure but you can sure tell who has never owned a WSM rifle. My thoughts are if you have never owned one or hunted/shot one then you have just that............an opinion! :cool:
I have a Weatherby SUB-MOA in .270 WSM that I can shoot all day long. The only thing that slows me down is the cost of ammo. If I were a Man with a thick wallet I would have seen how many rounds it would take to burn the throat out of it.
The recoil for me is nothing, and I am a panzy ass nanny boy when it comes to felt recoil. I am a flinching fool.
I can shoot that gun.
The .30'06 I had before that I could not hit the broad side of a barn with. Plastic stock cheapo weatherby/HOWA vangaurd P.O.S..
But then, rifle calibers are so subjective. The amount of different calibers is proof of that.
I think the WSM calibers are the best thing to ever happen to firearms.
As far as the WSSM calibers go I do not think they will last. Maybe a .30 WSSM but then doesnt that defeat the purpose? I purchased brand new a .25 WSSM bull barreled AR from OLYARMS. At the same time a purchased ammo that was to heavy a grain bullet (120 grain) and would not fit in the magazine because it was to long. OLYARMS never said anything about C.O.L. to me. I will never buy another gun from them.
Everything I have read, including my reloading book, ( Hornady.) says that the .243 WSSM is a barrel burner and shows signs of extreme pressure with little or no warning is enough for me to look elsewhere.
But then, you could fit what I know about guns in a thimble.
Mister Church. wouldnt a .30-'06 in WSM be a .300 WSM?
The '06 is the year it was produced.
I have a Savage SS Left hand bolt, ACCU-Trigger in 7MM WSM. It is scarey accurate right out of the box. I handload for this rifle using REM.140gr SP and Varget powder. I have no trouble putting a neck shot on a deer at 100.
I shot a friends Savage & fell in lust with it immediately. I ragged on him for 2 or 3 years until he finally sold it to me. It's a 110 with a floated bull barrel in a target stock with an extendable Harris bipod on the front. The Bushnell that was on it died so, being in a money crunch I bought a BSA 8x32x40mm OA & put on it. The scopes not that clear, but I can still hit anything I want with it. Here in southern Missouri & out where I hunt, if you get a shot longer than 100 yards, it's considered a long shot. I handload 55gr V-Max in it (22-250) and it drives nails. Come to think of it, my first deer ever, was with that rifle at about 200 yards (down here that's a long shot!). Down here you can deer hunt with any centerfire. While I'd agree the 22-250 is on the small side for deer, it's never let me down. Shot placement is critical, but being an old "squirrel shooter" it's also never been a problem! My nephew shot mine, feel in love with it & bought a Ruger M77 in 22-250. He bagged the biggest buck of his life with it the next season and has taken a great many deer with it (too many to remember). Last summer we took it to the range & was shooting daisy bb-gun clay target disks (about 2" diameter) off the wire at 100 yards. No misses, in fact it was so easy we started shooting the clothes pins that were holding them instead. I just purchased another Savage too. It's their "Weather Warrior", I forget the model number. It's got the black accustock, accutrigger, adjustable muzzle brake on a stainless barrel in the 270 WSM. I haven't got to bench it yet as it is butt-cold here & I still don't even have my scope for it, but I have no doubt it will also be a nail driver.
First off, I am not interested in buying one -- never really cared about things that had to wear the "magnum" label. There are a lot of reasons in my mind not to buy one. The main reason is that I do not need one. Standard cartridges do very well for me.
But, I have been asked that same question by people that I know. My advice is this:
With, with all of the short magnums that came out about the same time, some are bound not to survive. Which ones will be obsolete in 5-10 years is anybody's guess. However, to get an idea, just look to see who chambers which ones. I think that it will become quite clear from looking at the large volume manufacturer's offerings to see which ones sell. I think that the Winchester numbers are more likely to survive than the Remington ones. Just from what I have seen.
I'm tired so I haven't read all the posts but the first page mostly is HOT AIR ! the WSM's are here to stay and deserve to be with US ... Incidentally, a "30.06 WSM" ???? REALLY ??? I am hoping that was a bad joke !! the "325 WSM is just a modified 8 x 57" ??? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !! and "recoil" ?? anyone who can't tell that the recoil of a 325 WSM is easily 75% of a 338 win mag and in a 6.5 lb rifle must be just plain recoil SHY ! OH, and let's see ... "they just don't feed worth a hoot" ?? one should know of what they speak BEFORE talkin' bad about it ! I have WSM's in Tikka T3's, Kimber Montana's, Browning ABolt and have read ARTICLE AFTER ARTICLE about the stellar performance the WSM Savages give, HS Precision makes their PHL in WSM's as well as Hill Country Rifles - WAIT !! THERE'S MORE !! the 270 WSM sends every weight bullet out the muzzle just behind the 270 "bee" and with alot less BANG FOR YOUR BUCK ! the 7mm WSM has it's hands full with the 7mm Rem Mag (but then, so does the 7mm "bee") the 300 WSM ain't no 300 weatherby but it ain't no '06 neither and hardly kicks any worse - the WSM line fills a niche that was empty before and does it with efficiency, less recoil, better inherent accuracy and some needed "style" - IMO you "old school" boys can go hard or go home .... (and for the record, I LOVE my .308's and would not give them up for ANYTHING !!)
I am new on this post. Been in the gun business for years & years. Most of the WSM are gone already, not selling well. The only ones that still sale are the 300 WSM or the 270 WSM. Also almost all of the WSSM are also gone or not selling. Gun manufactures always have to come up with something new to make money, that's business. I also do not like people hunting (shooting) at long ranges. I have been a guide for over 45 years, ever animal I ever took was under 100 yards except one Mulie Buck in Colorado. Its called hunting not shooting. No one should ever shoot at a animal over 350 yards, period.