New (to me) Toy

[versifier]

A few years ago I was down to the pawn shop looking for used DVD's and shooting the breeze with my friend who works there. An older woman comes into the shop with a clunky looking ancient Savage bolt action rifle. She said it had been her late husband's "loaner rifle", that none of their kids wanted it, and she just wanted to unload it for some quick cash. It was in .30-30, looked to be 50's vintage, and it came with two mags.

At the time, I was trying to find a cast bullet that my .30-30 Contender Carbine would shoot really well at 100yds. I was trying for MOA, but 2MOA was the best I had been able to achieve and I had already gone through a dozen different moulds. I had owned a Rem788 in .30-30 years back and I was still kicking myself for selling it. The cartridge has always been a favorite of mine, especially for cast bullets. I kept one ear open as I thumbed trhough racks of DVD's.

After allowing as how it wasn't likely to sell anytime soon as it wasn't anyone's idea of an "in demand" deer rifle so the market for it was extremely limited, in a few minutes he had her down to a figure I would have frankly been embarrassed to offer, but I am no salesman. She agreed, said it was just what her son had told her to expect, he gave her cash, and she walked out.

He looks over at me and says "Great. I know I'm going to regret this. I just bought a .30-30 bolt. Know anyone looking for a dinosaur?" He started to get out the logbook to record it. Knowing I had nothing to lose, I dug into my wallet and put down what he had paid her plus his standard $20 fee for an FFL transfer. He said "You've got to be kidding." I said "Well, if you want to, it can sit on your rack gathering dust until we're both senile, and I promise to renew my offer yearly, but that's my top offer. You want to get rid of it now or not?" He hemmed and he hawed for a few minutes, but I had him right over a barrel and he knew it and the rifle came home with me after we finished the paperwork. He's made plenty of money off of me over the years and I send him a lot of business, so both of us were satisfied.

About a month later I got a deal on another Contender Carbine barrel, this one a Custom Shop job in .35Rem. I have yet to find a load that this one won't shoot at least MOA, some half that, so without hesitation I sold my .30-30 barrel at a nice profit to a guy who just had to have it. I think this .35's one of the most accurate Contender barrels I have ever owned, so naturally I dropped everything to start trying all of my different .35cal moulds in it and the Savage moved to the back burner.

Well, with one thing and another, and a move across the state, it sat in my safe for the next several years gathering dust. This January there was four feet of snow on the ground and I wanted an inside project (I do the bulk of my rifle loading mid winter when the range is snowed in and I can only shoot handguns). The .35 had "the load" all worked up and five hundred rounds loaded of its favorite recipe. I had finally finished testing my dozen .30cal moulds in both my deer rifles and had the perfect loads worked up for them with hundreds of rounds loaded for each, so my thoughts returned to the old .30-30. I dug out a few hundred cases and prepped them, then I checked my stash of cast hunting bullets and chose my two favorites to start, a 150gr (45 2.1 design, group buy) and my old reliable Lyman 311041 that drops around 185gr with my hunting alloy (straight WW's).

I finally got to the range with it yesterday afternoon. I set up target at 50yds and tried five different loads with 311041 and IMR4895. The ancient buckhorn sights leave a lot to be desired, but the first shots were barely on the paper so I decided not to mess with the sights (if it ain't broke, don't fix it) and to just use slightly bigger targets. There were five different loads on the ladder I was testing and I had ten rounds of each, enough for two groups apiece. As much as I hate buckhorn sights, I am beginning to like the little rifle. The largest group was just over 2", the smallest about 1.5". Eccept for minor changes in POI as I went up in charge increments, you would think I had ten groups shot with the same load instead of two each with five loads they were so consistant. It's a little early in the testing to tell yet, but it looks like it's accurate enough to warrant the hassle of putting a scope on it for 100yd testing. God alone knows where I will find a mount, so I guess that's my next step after I finish testing both bullets with three powders at 50. I'm sure I can rig something up and I seem to remember having a mount for a m110 somewhere in my parts box. I bet the screw holes will line up.

To be continued....

I have a few thoughts about bolt actions and rimmed cartridges. Although not exactly a marriage made in heaven, some of them work really well. SMLE's have always fascinated me because they were reliable enough to be the Britts' choice for half a century. My old 788 fed just as smoothly and was a real tack driver. This Savage has a personality though. One of the mags has some feeding issues that I will have to work out but the other functions just fine. (I learned the hard way years ago what happens if you don't pay careful attention to those rims when you load the mags or you can really jam things up thoroughly.) This one is a bit sloppy and fumbly to run compared to other bolt guns, and you really have to pay attention to what you're doing when you work the bolt, but I think that after I have fired a few hundred rounds through it I can cycle it without thinking about it and taking my eyes off the target. Smooth feeding it will never be, but it will I think make a decent loaner rifle for me as it had for its last owner.

If nothing else, it will keep me busy for the next month testing everything I have loaded for its preliminary evaluation. I just like having a .30-30 around anyway, and it's nice to have a loaner that won't break my heart if something happens to it in teenage hands. It will do what it was designed to do and no amount of field abuse could make it any uglier.

[carpetman]

Versifier--Maybe you can educate me. I can see no purpose for a 30-30 in bolt action. Why? Several reasons. First off--why not a .308? Then again, I see no purpose for a .308 in bolt action. The beauty of the .308 over a 30-06 is that the short cartridge works better in actions other than bolt--if going bolt--get the 30-06---you didnt gain a thing with the .308. Next thing is YES you can shoot pointed bullets in a 30-30 bolt. To me that is like having a pet rattlesnake. That pointed bullet can easily end up in a tubular magazine. Most folks will have one and someone possibly unknowingly it gets there.

[versifier]

I had hoped this thread might bring out some interesting responses and you've brought up some interesting points.

My personal belief (meaning I have no documented proof from back than) is that the original idea was to combine the country's most popular deer cartridge with a bolt action familiar to returning servicemen from WWI. (The first of the Savage bolts in .30-30 came out in the early 20's IIRC, priced substantially below their m99 levers). It could also have been out of a desire to explore the accuracy potential of the cartridge that many felt could never be done in a lever action. I suspect too that Savage did not want to drop the rim and stamp .30 Remington on their barrels, still a reasonably popular cartridge until WWII pushed it over the line into obsolescence a quarter century later. I think it would still make the perfect .30cal bolt action cast rifle, but the closest we can come to it these days with available or easily formable brass are the .30-30 or the .30BR (and my .30BR should be all finished and ready for testing in another month.) Bottom line, the .30-30 is a fun cartridge, accurate and efficient, ideally suited to both deer hunting and to cast bullets. I just plain like having one around. The rimmed case can be a real PITA in a bolt action, but there have been millions of them made and used over the last century.

As to pointy bullets in a tubular mag, first, I do not presently own a lever action so there's no danger even if I shot jacketed bullets in it, which I do not (all my cast hunting bullets have flat noses and all my cast target bullets all have round noses so for me it's a moot point). Second, while I have been listening since I was a kid how dangerous pointy bullets in tubular mags can be, I have never heard or seen any proof at all of it ever happening. One would think that with all the millions of .30-30 Winchester and Marlin levers out there combined with Murphy's Law and the number of complete fools running around drooling, it ought to have happened often enough for there to be some actual proof of it occurring that is easily locatable. I have looked several times for examples to show my Hunter Ed students, but have never been able to find anything more than the warning constantly repeated. That doesn't mean it's not a good idea to avoid the practice - it's a logical and sensible thing to do in any event, but I have come to the belief it is really nothing more than another urban legend. If you or anyone can show me a photo of a rifle it actually happened in, I'd really like to see one and stick it in with my class notes to show the kids.

I have several .308's and -06's: bolt actions, M1A, Garand, and I shoot cast in all of them. For cast bullets, though, exceeding the case capacity of the .30-30 gains you absolutely nothing. The maximum practical velocity of a cast projectile is a function of alloy vs. lube and with softer hunting bullets you can't do better than the old .30-30 with larger cases. You can try, but you'll be mining a lot of lead out of the rifle's barrel. Been there, done that, and I suspect you have, too. With really hard cast target bullets, a little more case capacity than the .30-30 provides is usable on rare occasions with certain powders.

Personally, speaking as a deer hunter, I feel just the opposite to you about the .308 vs. the -06. I enjoy the -06 because of it's history and while it is indeed a versatile cartridge, with jacketed bullets up to 165gr there is no advantage whatever to the larger case for a deer hunter. In fact, the -06 burns a lot more powder to get the same velocities. With heavier bullets and slower powders, the -06 leaves the .308 behind quickly, but if I need something heavier than 165gr (don't see why as they'll drop even large moose nicely), I'll move up in caliber for greater stopping power. Most folks shoot deer with the same weight bullets in their -06's as they do in their .308's, (last time I checked, factory ammo sales tell us that the two best selling loadings of both cartridges are 150gr, then 165gr, followed after a good gap by 180's, and then by everything else both lighter and heavier.) I'm not bashing the -06 here, I'm just pointing out that for most shooters, there is usually no advantage to the larger case. In fact, at the ranges most deer are shot, the truth is that most of today's hunters could still get by perfectly well with a .30-30.

[carpetman]

Versifier---We are for the most part on the same page. Your points of WW1 servicemen getting used to bolt actions and building a bolt gun cheaper than a Savage 99 very probably were considerations---along with the bigee--with these considerations in mind---will pople buy it? Now that you mention it---I dont recall for sure--but I THINK I saw a picture of a pointy bullet setting off a round in a tubular magazine--maybe I didn't? I agree that a deer isn't going to know the difference of whether it was 308 or 30-06--sorta like my truck engine. The 6 cylinder, small v-8 and large v-8 all had about the same gas mileage rating, so why not get the large v-8? Your point of if you need more get a larger bore is exactly my thoughts about why to NOT get a .300 mag over a 30-06. I use 150 grainers in both the .308 and the 30-06. I don't hunt with cast-----except varmints. I had a bad experience with cast in a .243 on a spike and I know cast works well in larger bores--but so do jacketed and I don't have the rainbow trajectory.

[kodiak1]

versifier I think the 30-30 in a bolt is great as you stated.
They are a hell of a good gun and have killed more game than any other caliber.
I think the extra bullets that you can use now make it a lot more versatile.
Nice score.

Ken.

[jlb300]

This thread has been here for 3 years and I am just now reading it......... Anyhow I think that the best thing to come from this is the fact that Versifier Got a great deal on a rifle and he can use it for any purpose... Aint America great? Any gun that you can make work is a good one. Just my opinion

[versifier]

In the years since I first wrote that, my friend's wife fell in love with the rifle. It fits her perfectly. She shoots and hunts with one of those 150gr cast loads I had still to test when I stopped to write about it. Rested it will keep them in 2" @100yds and they go around 2200fps. Basically identical to a jacketed 150 factory round in velocity, but the flat nose makes it a better deer killer, in WW alloy they expand more evenly and they hold together better, and they don't shed pieces of jacket along their way. Her son hunts with it too. They have gone through over 300 rounds that I loaded; they shoot factory rounds when they get a deal on some and give me the brass to reload with "the good bullets". It has put a good amount of meat in their freezer the last three winters. She shoots snowshoe hares with it too when the rest of us use shotguns. They like the sights, and they're happy with the factory sling attachments. I offered to put a recoil pad, peep sights, and qd posts for modern sling swivels. Maybe some day. She puts white, black, or red nail polish on the front sight and black on the rear over the old steel that the finish wore off long ago. It has a good home.