What's Up?

[udaman1]

Wow, no posts in this category.

Well, I'll go...

I am a new reloader although I have been a plinker and target shooter for a long time. Last winter, watching the political scene I began to get nervous about our Second Amendment rights. I stepped up my shooting activity, joined the NRA and bought a few additional guns. I favor Smith and Wesson pistols mostly for the fact that I think they are a good value for the price and also because I like the way they look. I won't go into too much detail but I have both 9mm semi's and .38/.357 revolvers.

As I increased my time at the shooting range I was led into reloading. Again, worried that the do-gooders would push bans and tax/fee increases I thought that having some supplies and the means to make bullets would be a good idea. It is only a little stretch to me to see the day the dollar collapses and bullets are valuable trade goods.

So here is my reloading state: I read a lot of material on reloading. I read a lot about the equipment and the components. I was led to believe that everything you wanted to know was in the reloading manuals. And a lot was. But just when I thought I was set up I found that information I needed was not in the books. That is how I came to this site. (Now quite dismayed to see no posts.)

I know I have made rookie mistakes and I won't try to hide the fact. Using the information I had and stuff I was told I did the best I could. The first mistake I made was setting up to reload the 9mm instead of the .38. But I did.

Looking for the best prices on the internet I was shocked to see what it cost to buy bullets vs. what I had been told guys were reloading for. Then there were the Hazmat fees for powder and primers. When I questioned an advisor where they were getting bullets for under 5 cents I was told "at the gun shows" by one guy and "by the pallet load" by another.

Not wanting a pallet load, off to the gun show I went. OK, so they had cast lead bullets for under 6 cents. As a target shooter I surmised that light loads with light bullets would get the job done and prolong brass and pistol life. So I bought some 125 grain lead bullets in 500 count boxes, the .38 being round nose flat point. The brand name on the boxes was Suter's Choice.

Looking in my shiny new Lymans I found that neither the 9mm or the .38 special had info for 125 grain lead bullets. Great, thought I. Back to the Internet.

Having started to set up my Dillon 550 for the 9mm round I figured I could approximate the powder charge but I was worried about the wide range of figures shown for the OAL or COAL. (Overall length of the finished cartridge for the neophyte...I hate trying to decode all these abreviations when letters are so cheap). The picture of the finished cartridge in the Lyman showed an OAL of 1.169" but several of the specific bullet charts showed a wide range...from 1.050" on up. The factory Winchester 115 Full Metal Jackets I had measured 1.169" right on. I was concerned that pressing the bullet in too far would have a severe change on the loaded pressure. I had seen MANY warnings about over pressure in max loads so I wanted some better information before proceeding.

Again, I ended up here. And believe me I have read a lot of posts and web sites looking for information. I see info from "cowboys" who lead me to belive that they are willing to stuff just about anything into their guns in spite of the MANY warnings. I ask questions of people who I assume know something, who have been reloading for a long time and I get dumb looks. Such as, what do you do when you are trying to devlop a load and there is no information on your specific bullet? Can you use plated bullet information interchangably with lead bullet information? How do you correct length info for flat points in hollow point or flat point bullets of the same weights? My greatest fear is not blowing up but rather, sticking a bullet in the barrel...then blowing it up.

So, even though I am a beginner and new to this I got over my fear of being considered stupid and decided to post this. I ended up loading up 10 9mm bullets, as suggested for a test. I took them to the range and was quite pleased that they worked my action fine and grouped OK. (I did not measure the group this first time. Tank suggested keeping a log in another post and I now see the wisdom of this). The load was thus: primer: Winchester small pistol. powder: 3.55 grains of Winchester 231 ball. bullet: Suter's Choice 125 grain lead round nose, pre-lubricated. COAL: 1.67-1.69". I was shooting for 3.5 grains of powder but ended up just on the high side. I saw a very interesting video on youtube about reloading in which the guy demonstrated weighing powder shot by shot and then double checked by throwing 10 loads and weighing that...this is what I did. I was led to the Winchester powder since I live close to a Winchester facility that has a nice outdoor range I use. I found the 231 powder to fire a little "dirty". I tried to buy an eight pound lot of powder but the guy talked me out of it..."That's a lot of powder, what if you don't like it?" he asked. Best advice I have got so far.

I had a little time on my hands this morning so I thought I would share this. I have been accused of being "windy" in the past and I am afraid it is true. Oh well, like I said, letters are cheap but information is priceless. Next time, the .38 special.

Pat in Alton....udaman

[wildbill49]

Hi Pat,

Read your post and see you may have been lead down a wrong path with some bad suggestions. For starters, finding bullets at 5 cents or less is very doubtful. Looking at current prices, 10 cents would be more realistic, unless you want to cast your own. You didn't say what diameter your .38 - 125's were. If they were for 9mm, most likely you were getting a bullet of .356 or smaller. For the .38 Special this is a little small. I size mine at .358 and find they work well. I shooting NRA Bullseye matches at 50 & 25 yards and find if I do my part I can keep my shots in the black at those ranges. I'm using a cast Lyman #35863 bullet. This is a wadcutter and with wheel weights mine cast about 147 gr. I also am using 3.1 grs of W231 with WSP primers. These are being shot out of my S&W Model 52 target pistol. This load costs me about $2.50/50 rounds. Lead is getting more expensive, but what I have on stock cost me about 50 cents a pound. One pound of W231 is about $23 and a box of 100 primers runs a little less than $3. This cost doesn't take into acount the cost of electricity to run my lead pot or the bullet lub.

Now if I am buying the bullets, my cost would jump about 9 cents a round.

As for the 9mm load, I don't shoot a lot of 9mm, but do cast and load the round. I use a Lyman #356402 sized at .356. This bullet weighs about 125 grs. My load was with 2.8 grs of W231, which is listed as a max load in my older Lyman reloading manual, but I see Lyman's 49th book lists the max with that bullet at 4.4 gr and you were using 3.5 gr. Again , I'm sure you have heard this before, but you don't usually get your best accuracy with max loads.

As for dirty powder, I find that with cast bullets almost all powders create a lot more of a mess that jacketed bullets.

You also had some concers about OAL. You find this varies greatly from bullet to bullet. With the auto loaders you have to keep the length short enough to work in the mag. This also means that you need to push the bullet back into the case enough so that the bullet isn't messing up your head space by being in front of the case mouth and causing the loaded round not to go all the way into the chamber. You can check this by taking your barrel out of the pistol and using it as a head space gage.

I hope this info is of some help. I started reloading in 1961 and wouldn't want to relate some of the information the old timers told me back then, but I lived through it and didn't blow up a gun in the process.

Oh, one other point I wanted to cover. Where you buy your componets. I'm in CA and have a Sportsman's Warehouse near by that has good prices. The smaller guy has to pass along those shipping changes and doesn't get the best prices with his smaller purchases, so his prices will normally be higher. Look around for one of the larger stores that has reloading supply, like Cabela's or Sportsman's Warehouse.

Good luck,

Wild Bill

[udaman1]

Hey Wild Bill,

Thanks for a lot of good information. As far as the sizes and prices, I know I left some details out but I did buy cast lead bullets for 5.7 cents and I have been paying just less than $20 a pound for the 231. I recently bought some Titegroup for less than $17. I figure I am just under or right at 9 cents with the purchased bullets. (Used brass of course).

We have a very nice reloading shop not far from where I live. They are very helpful and their prices are as good as I've found. I believe they have a website too. The name of the place is Graf's Reloading located in St. Charles, MO.

I haven't got as far as casting bullets yet but I might down the road.

Your comments about using the 9mm barrel as a gage were very interesting to me, I have been a little confused about headspace and just exactly what to look for in seating the 9mm bullet in the barrel...I will try your suggestion.

Thanks again, Pat

[golddigger]

Pat I am new here but been reloading for a fair amount of time. When I was getting in to reloading I spoke with my dad and he said let me give you one word of advice. That being said he replied that if you are to reload lots of different calibers find 1 or 2 powders that will do most calibers. well 20 years later I still use Bullseye for my pistols and IMR4831 for all rifles but one.

As for loading 38spl. I use 148 grain hollow based wadcutter with 2.8 grains of powder. This load is real reliable and acurite.

Do not load for 9mm but do have lots of manuals if you would like data.
I use sierra, speer, nosler, and hornady books so feel free to ask and I will get back to you if not at work.

Jim
The golddigger

[wildbill49]

Hi Pat,

Glad to be of some assist.

Yes, I've heard of Graf's and if you are in driving distance of them, you are good to go with great prices.

As for headspace, remember that the two rounds you are loading have two different types of headspace issues. The .38 Special and almost all other rimmed cartridges headspace on the rim and case lenght isn't that big of an issue. With the rimless cases, like the 9mm Luger and .45 ACP rounds, the cartridge headspaces on the length of the case and can become an issue. My suggestion of using the barrel works if it isn't to much trouble to take the pistol down to get the barrel exposed, but a go-no go gauge like L.E. Wilson's is a good investment. I checked my last year's Graf's catalog and didn't see that product, but Lee makes Case Length Gauge for $4.59, part #LEE90153, which I'm sure would work just as well.

Also, remember that the Luger needs a taper crimp, while the .38 Special used a rolled crimp. A roll crimp on the 9mm will mess with the headspace by shortening the case.

Wish I could find cast bullets at those prices out here. There are lots of bullets that I would like to test drive before buying the mold and casting my own. Right now I have 35 different bullet molds, but doubt that I use even a 3rd of them on a regular basis. Then again that is less than one a year for all the years I've been casting (1964 to present).

Take care and enjoy the sport,

Will Bill

[udaman1]

Thank you gents for some great information for a rookie reloader. Wild Bill, I tried your suggestion on using a spare 9mm barrel I have and instantly cleared up all my confusion about headspacing on the bullet and the taper crip vs. roll. I did purchase both the 9mm and .38 special test gages from Dillon but they don't work the same way putting the 9mm bullet in the barrel does. I understand completely the difference between the .38 headspacing on the rim and the 9mm on the case now.

And golddigger I thank for the info on the .38 special load. 2.8 grains of powder sounds really light but I recently purchased some 148 double ended wad cutters to try so will be setting up for them soon. Your offer of information on 9mm loads is a help, I would be very interested to see if any of your books have any charts on 9mm 125 grain round nosed lead bullets (when you get around to it). I have both Winchester 231 and Titegroup powder on hand. (I have the Lyman 49th and just ordered a new Lee second edition manual and am looking for others).

I have read the many posts on the subject of casting bullets and I think I will be looking into that soon. I belong to an indoor pistol club that allows members to recycle lead out of the target traps and I also have some access to WW lead.

Thanks again and looking forward to learning more about this sport.

Pat in Alton...udaman1

[golddigger]

Pat I looked in my hornady book it has a listing for 124 grn lead round nose
unique powder 4.0 low 5.0 max
herco 4.o low 4.8 max
viht n-350 4.4 low 5.2 max
power pist 4.3 low 5.7 max
win act pist 4.2 low 5.8 max
sr 4756 4.1 low 5.5 max
hs-6 5.1 low 5.9 max
blue dot 4.8 low 6.6 max
win 540 5.2 low 6.1 max
hs-7 5.6 low 6.4 max
aa no.7 6.2 low 7.9 max

This is about the only thing I can find on 9mm that is close to what you want.
Hope this helps . Will ask a few friends if they have any info.
Jim
golddigger

[udaman1]

golddigger Jim,

Thanks for the effort and the info. I am surprised to see that all the starting loads are over 4 grains. As I posted earlier I put 3.55 grains of Win 231 behind my 125 lead round nose and they shot OK. (But I only shot a couple of test clips so far). Next visit to the range I am going to shoot some test groups and I will post the results on the size of the groups.

Pat in Alton

[udaman1]

Well I visited the range yesterday and shot up some of my newly reloaded 9mm rounds I described above. I was a little frustrated that they were not grouping as well as I had hoped but then I thought, that is what is supposed to happen.

Trying to force them to group better I was really bearing down and concentrating. For the record I was shooting a Smith Model 59. The best group I was able to coax out of them was 3.5 inches. (Our indoor range is 50ft.)

Just as I was finishing up another reloader showed up. I told him what I had been doing and showed him some of my targets. We discussed the load and then he asked to see some of the shells..."Let me look at your primers", he said. Ah, very light load, says he, "What is your COAL?" As stated above I had these set at 1.169" Way too long for your bullet and powder load he says, your primers are not flattening out and your pressure is very low. Try seating your bullet deeper with the same powder load...make up 10 that are -.010" and 10 that are -.020" and so on and then come back and try them. Watch the primers and you should see them start to flatten out. Some where along the line your groups will improve and your action will work better.

For the record, the gun shot pretty good. I only had 2 out of 100 fail to eject and those were both the last bullets in a magazine.

I guess most of what I just reported will not be news to experienced reloaders but it was pretty interesting to me as a newbie. I report it only to help those who might be as green as I am and have a lot to learn about this sport.

It was suggested to me that I needed more manuals than just one so I started looking and just received the Lee Modern Reloading Second Edition. It is loaded with some good information if you can get to it past Mr. Lee's ego. Sheesh.

Stay tuned.

Pat in Alton

[versifier]

Primers flattening is usually a sign of overpressure. Don't shoot too close to that guy when you're at the range, it might not be healthy. If the load is too light they will sometimes protrude by two or three thousandths, but with a pistol you would be seeing failures to feed and function at that level. You are not shooting a match pistol. If they are all on the paper, that is all you really need for practice or self defence. I refer to it as "Minute Of A$$hole". This is not to say that with perseverance you won't find a more accurate load, but you are pushing the pistol's limit. I owned one and loaded for another and both could keep everything on the paper at 25yds. Neither was up to Bullseye competition, but they were designed as carry pistols and they do that quite well. As to your OAL, most of the bullet's bearing surface should be in the case, but if they fit in the magazine, feed, and function well, you are doing what you're supposed to do. Experimenting with OAL might find you a more accurate load with that bullet/powder combination, but you might not see it without a Ransom Rest. Small changes that are instantly obvious to rifles shot from a solid rest are often hard to detect with handguns. Your hands do not form a solid platform, that is why they use machine rests for serious accuracy testing. All you need is a load that you can keep all shots on the paper at whatever range you are comfortable with.

Comprehensive testing of components is very difficult on a progressive press. That is not what they are designed to do. In fact, it is the exact opposite of what they are designed for (producing many of the exact same load quickly). Neither are they appropriate for a beginning loader because they do not allow learning of the parameters of each specific operation. My best advice to you is to buy a decent single stage press for learning and for load development. You will be a better and safer loader for it, and you will (believe it or not) save quite a bit of time switching powders, bullets, and die settings while you are developing your loads. Most experienced loaders that I know who run Dillons also have a single stage on their benches for its versatility.

[udaman1]

Versifier,

Again, I thank you for your meaningful comments. I fully agree that the Model 59 shot the way I am shooting (supported on bench) is not highly accurate. As far as the pressure situation I think I am on the very low end of the spectrum with 3.5 grains of 231 and the 125 grain bullet at 1.169". I have checked my 2 books, golddigger's info and the Winchester 231 page and 3.5 grains is below all the starting loads I can find. But again, they are working my action and feeding fine. And I guess, reading your comments about staying on the paper, a 3.5-4" group is acceptable. I would invite comment on 9mm loads for the 125 grain cast lead bullets from any reader who has info, especially specific information on the powder, weight of charge and OAL.

I know you got on me earlier about the progressive loader but that is what I have for now. Having used it so far I can not quibble with your statements that this is a bad idea for load development. As far as its use by a beginner, I would like to think that I can read and write and follow simple directions. I am an experienced mechanic and fully conversant with the the mechanics involved in the various steps. That said, I do see your point in the overall complexity of working a progressive machine. All this leading to the reason I am here on your forum...to learn about the art of reloading.

I did take your advice and start shopping for more manuals. I just received the Lee Second edition and the vendor included a Lee catalog. Now that I know a little more about what the game is I can see the usefulness of the single stage machines and understand more what they are for, and capable of.

I would appreciate your (or any ones) comments on the various brands of single stage machines. (Although I guess this is not the proper forum for that). Reading Richard Lee's book and looking at the catalog and prices of his stuff has me leaning that way. But I will definitely take a little more time and do some shopping before I buy. I say again, I agree with you completely that the Dillon, fine piece that it is, needs supplemented on my bench.

Thanks and keep up the good work on this forum. The more good information made available to new reloaders the more popular it will become. I know how easy it is to be intimidated as a beginner and made to feel like a moron when there is just plain lack of experience. And as you can see in my previous posts there are a LOT of guys willing to share dubious information with me. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Thanks.........Pat In Alton

[S&W-57Man]

I have only used Lyman and Lee molds in the past but know there are several others, as well. I would like for someone to offer a larger list of bullet mold manufacturers. I would also appreciate contact information for this list. Thank you for your interest and effort.

S&W-57Man

I use this contact name since it was my first pistol, and still love it.

[versifier]

Welcome to Gunloads S&W-57Man.

For commercial moulds, Lyman, Lee, RCBS, Saeco, check out Midway www.midwayusa.com They have a really good selection and their website is easy to navigate.

There are a bunch of different companies, large and small (mostly small) that make custom moulds, and a few that make commercial moulds. The best comprehensive source for all of them is to go next door to Cast Boolits Forum and "search" there and ask the other members. You'll have more good answers than you will be able to check out in a month of Sundays.

[udaman1]

Just an update on the comments from the "flattened primer" guy and further trials.

At his suggestion, just to see what effect it had, I made up some bullets with shorter OAL...a few at 1.150" and then a few at 1.135". This was the only change in the load.

There was a noticeable improvement in group size with the 1.135" bullets. (Not so much with the 1.150"). Granted, I am not an Olympic quality shooter and my gun and rest technique are not labratory perfect but the loads shot without fail in the action and the groups were much more consistent.

Pat in Alton